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Yesterday, I wrote my first diary in what seems like ages. You may have seen it, it was on the rec list for quite some time.

One person commented rather high up in the thread that he noticed I hadn't been around for awhile. He was correct.

I love this place. You have no idea the things in my life that I have placed on hold to research and write the health policy diaries.  You have no idea the time I have devoted to this place.  You have no idea the sacrifices I have made for this place.  Many of us do.  That's because we care.  We probably care too much.

And this is not a complaint. I am beyond honored to be recognized for the work I do.

But as I said, someone noticed that I hadn't written a diary for ages--it was more like ten days. The truth is, I haven't much felt like diary writing since the FP nomination wars. I stayed as far away from those skirmishes as a devoted Kossack junkie possibly could.

I did read quite a bit though, or at least as much as I could stomach, but I said nothing. Not. One. Word. I kind of sense that that sweepstakes marked the current downward Dkos spiral.

I took in what y'all were saying about each other--and occasionally about me. It was a new experience to be evaluated in such a public forum. To be panned by some--damn I was brought up in the spirit that if you can't say something nice, you try and button the old lip.

But that's not the way of Daily Kos. And it seems to be getting nastier with each passing day, despite mcjoan's exhortation to get along and make nice.  I'm starting to read what some of you are saying about others and I'm getting more depressed by the second.

I think the new front page editors/writers are terrific. Some of you have been less generous in your critiques--they're too milquetoasty, not throwers of invective-strewn red meat. I think you're wrong, and furthermore, we have the right side, they have the left. Throw your red meat on the right side of the screen.  Let them do their thing on the left.

This brings me to my next point, agendas. I happen to have an agenda, it's all about restoring fairness and a sense decency to our country. I have no illusion about my miniscule role, I simply can write an occasional diary that I hope will impact some creep in Washington to think about the dire needs of hardworking American citizens. I also have no illusion that I'm not as smart and politically sophisticated as some of the really kick-ass folk around here. You can interpret the previous sentence in any way that pleases you.

But maybe it's more important is to ask, what's your agenda?

And the next point

The criticism. It's reached a tipping point.  I read somewhere that peeder has resigned. What the hell caused peeder to resign?  The guy's a hero, a genius--he fixed my computer in the middle of the god damn night after the Ajax system was installed and I was in deep shit. What the hell crime did he commit--being too nice?  Respondng to the emails of Kossacks in extremis in a nanosecond?

What's going on with these self-appointed (or officially appointed, God knows, I certainly don't) Kossackian high priests casting judgment on all who don't  precisely live up to some unspecified and ethereal standard?  It's a great feeling not to be in the inner circle--not to know what the hell is happening. But would someone tell an idiot like me, what gives?

I've been around here for awhile. They way things are going, pretty soon, my UID 21195 will seem valuable. But even an old-timer like me can no longer even begin to figure out what's "correct" and what's verboten.  Who's in and who's out? I was never big on cliques in elementary school certainly not on Daily Kos.

If I cared to devote precious hours, I could probably figure out which Kossacks "matter" and those who have been relegated (by other ill-defined forces) to ignominious irrelevance. And what a damn shame that it's come to this--if in fact it has. I hope I'm wrong. But wading through all the mud is very labor intensive, time-consuming, distracting--and yes, boring.

So could someone tell the rest of us, who generally stay out of all this crap, what the hell is going on? Frankly it's become very emotionally draining and I've invested a lot of time in this cherished place.  And then could we move on? There's a lot of work to do.

I wish some of you received the emails that I find in my AOL account every day.  If you did, you'd stop this internecine bickering. You'd hold the feet of our servants, our public servants to the fire, until they screamed in as much pain as our fellow citizens.

Please, just some clarification for the rest of us who as a hero of mine used to say, work hard and play by the rules.

Originally posted to nyceve on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:23 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Please, please no flames . . . (244+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mapantsula, Sharoney, Mary, PeWi, Devilstower, PSoTD, Spit, Ed in Montana, maryb2004, oldpro, dwellscho, coral, Radiowalla, Kimberly Stone, tiggers thotful spot, alisonk, Rolfyboy6, pHunbalanced, Mullibok, saraswati, RickWn, Avila, Emerson, littlesky, Hummingbird, TeresaInPa, Stein, rhubarb, oysterface, Pompatus, Plutonium Page, DemInCville, sobermom, Ahianne, exNYinTX, Jerome a Paris, Harper, planetjeff, LIsoundview, flipwilson, RubDMC, unterhausen, Thistime, rasbobbo, DaveV, missLotus, BlackGriffen, wonkydonkey, baba durag, Shadan7, amsterdam, Mary Julia, Cassandra77, Susan1138, bhlogger, Welshman, undercovercalico, SusanHu, poemless, ksh01, jenifera, marchmoon, stodghie, peraspera, Miss Blue, andreww, bewert, dmsilev, DemocracyLover in NYC, WeatherDem, kredwyn, caseynm, Dube, BarbinMD, Bill W, campskunk, missreporter, draftchrisheinz, DeadB0y, Kentucky DeanDemocrat, casperr, ghostofaflea, Sunqueen212, Kaya, TiaRachel, hoolia, exiledfromTN, tooblue, PaulVA, Caldonia, peterborocanuck, On The Bus, Catte Nappe, tabbycat in tenn, AbsurdEyes, lcrp, 4jkb4ia, inclusiveheart, barbwires, DMiller, zerelda, eleanora, side pocket, sweettp2063, Grahamdubya, gretel, SteveK, madaprn, Fabian, chumley, lavaughn, ebbak, 3goldens, Rick Oliver, el dorado gal, coloradobl, JanetT in MD, Lying eyes, ignorant bystander, irate, clammyc, eightlivesleft, karpinsky, catleigh, trinityfly, Turkana, Annalize5, Morrigan, eyama, Pam from Calif, Sharon in MD, Karmafish, jmonch, libbie, lasky57, gkn, JenThinks, cerulean, kitchen table activist, JavaManny, wiscmass, Joes Steven, willers, dsteffen, oibme, Erevann, noweasels, begone, mariva, lcork, wahuwa, Appalachian Annie, Progressive Liberaltarian, dus7, Topaz7, dannyinla, evanaj, Major Danby, trashablanca, atdnext, Do Tell, Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse, Keone Michaels, vigilant meerkat, draggingyourfeet, virgomusic, VolvoDrivingLiberal, funhaus5, RAZE, Ellicatt, Gorette, borkitekt, Hear Our Voices, buhdydharma, Loonesta, deha, fromer, fiddler crabby, Junior Bug, isis2, kck, EuroPerspective, blueoasis, jlove1982, 4Freedom, curmudgiana, Crashing Vor, justalittlebitcrazy, DSPS owl, NearlyNormal, kay dub, plf515, bleeding heart, myrealname, ER Doc, oakroyd, anniethena, vivian darkbloom, land of the free, vox humana, CA Nana, va dare, ticket punch, toys, Stripe, blueness, RickBoston, Friend of the court, Temmoku, mariachi mama, eastmt, AmericanRiverCanyon, beaukitty, Abraham Running For Congress When I Turn 25, FoundingFatherDAR, Cronesense, wa ma, JFinNe, Blue Eyed Buddhist, possum, ksp, moodyinsavannah, godislove, gloriana, unit24, jayb, Mary Mike, kath25, profmom, daveygodigaditch, Matt Z, DWG, drchelo, Unbozo, Burnsey, chicago jeff, lil love, Got a Grip, Hens Teeth, Predictor, MKinTN, Light Emitting Pickle, indeterminate cutlery, HawkWife

    Just some constructive dialogue.

    And if you can't be civil, polite and helpful, then say nothing, or take a deep breath, and only write when you can be respectful.

    Critiques are fine, it's mud that is unacceptable.

        •  Thank you (47+ / 0-)

          Like you, I haven't posted much here -- and didn't for a while when my back problems were all-consuming -- but it seems like the group's preferences for diaries have changed an awful lot.  The angrier, the more controversial, those titled with "F--k," and the shorter pieces seem to get more attention.  And diaries that are just a few quotes from a news article.  (I worry about those because this blog is so visible, visited by so many MSMers and politicians, and my wish is that it feature more original work with a rich array of sources and thoughts -- the kind of diary writing that even the MSMers will respect.  Clipping some quotes from a news story didn't use to cut it.  Those who recommended diaries used to expect more.)

          I missed all the disputes about the FPers, and am glad I did so.  Kos has always had good judgment about who he picks.  I thoroughly enjoy every FP story, and always learn something from them.

          Susan in Port Angeles (my cat)

          by SusanHu on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:05:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I experienced the same (22+ / 0-)

            I didn't read much and certainly didn't post the months just following Katrina.  When I returned, I found more insulting comments with no explanation.  Also, people seemed to be responding and reacting to their emotions instead of taking the time to think them out in order to make cogent arguments.

            •  "taking time to think them out..." (31+ / 0-)

              I think you've hit the nail on the head.

              With so many active users and comments scrolling by so fast in -- there isn't much time to post thoughtful comments.  If you take time to think before you post, you're almost guaranteed to have your comment relegated to somewhere in the middle of 500 comments, where it will languish mojoless and responseless for all eternity (or until the archives go down).

              But it only takes 10 seconds to come up with a "clever mojo-grabbing quip" (to quote myself from an earlier meta discussion from about 2 years ago on the same topic).  These quips often come at the expense of another poster -- with predictable consequences.

            •  The bigger the community gets (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nyceve

              the more diversity we'll get in the tone of the posts.

              Ignore the fools. It's not that hard.

              ARGville - The real world in bite-size chunks.

              by VictorNJ on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:13:14 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Try this link (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jimsaco, isis2

              Rants are not the only reason Dkos is losing credibility.  

              Review this link (and the comments) to see why:

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              Not to mention the abject racism coming out of the I/P diary posts.  The admins are either ignoring that or supporting it.  Either way, the buzz around the professional operatives is that DKos as a whole supports a racist view.  Whether it's true or not, it's not helping credibility...

              This diary got a recommend:

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              Look at the comments, especially the hidden ones.

              DKos has a problem.

              •  "the buzz around the professional operatives" (7+ / 0-)

                I condemn what the first diary condemns, heavyily-recommended wishful-thinking inaccurate posts, but can't the professional operatives have their own site that will exactly accord with who has the biggest lobbying/campaign bucks to throw around? And then dailykos can be for the rest of us.

                Mattes's diary is a rant, but an accurate one in particular on the 42,000 homes to razed. I assume the 'problem' is that it is critical of Israel, and so that makes you and "the professional operatives" call it racist.

                Let me put it put it simply: Inside-the-Beltway "professional operatives" f----ck off!

                David Sirota or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

                by fairleft on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:52:54 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You make this diarist's and my point (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  citizen53, isis2

                  Listen to your tone.  Way to reply, dude...

                  And, whether Mattes' diary was accurate or not (and there were those who pointed out a few inaccuracies -- i.e. the Bedu are Israeli citizens, not Palestinians...), it was the comment thread I was referring to, especially the ones troll-rated off.  You support those points of view?

                  If so, you make my point, as well.

                  As for professional operatives, I was making the point that they are not supportive of the blogosphere, beyond where they can use it as an ATM or message depository.  

                  My point was and is that rants and racism only strengthen their argument with candidates against taking DKos seriously beyond how they can use it.

                  •  OH PLEASE... (7+ / 0-)

                    you have written three diaries, and one of your diaries is entitled "Is the left-wing anti-Semitic" in which you obliquely criticize Jimmy Carter's position on Israel.

                    so, we are well aware of your position, and your ability to attack opposing arguments by any means necessary (saying they are rants, saying that some "professional operatives" now think we are racists, and saying that we are anti-Semitic).

                    "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

                    by lokiloki on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:29:03 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  lokiloki, I was wondering if you were going . . . (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      jhritz

                      to turn up here.

                      I'm going to hold my tongue and ask you to do the same thing.

                      •  nyceve, are you proposing that people engage in (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        stiela, npbeachfun, lokiloki

                        communication in a civil manner (which is what I interpreted from your diary) or that they hold their tongue if they have opinions that aren't supported by you or certain other members?

                        •  Lokikoki, evidently has a problem . . . (5+ / 1-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Kimberly Stone, clammyc, buhdydharma, blueness, jhritz
                          Hidden by:
                          essexgreen

                          with me due to my ethnic background. This person made repeated and deeply unfortunate references to my background during the nominations thread. It was one of the major reasons I found the process so stomach turning and nauseating.

                          I really want to close the book on this and this person.  But since you asked, you're entitled to a response.

                          NO ON NYCEVE (0 / 0)
                          she is totally divisive with her semi-frequent stridently pro-israel posts...

                          "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

                          by lokiloki on Tue Nov 28, 2006 at 11:32:17 AM PST

                          [ Parent | Reply to This ]

                          Here is her/his comment page, look for yourself.

                          http://www.dailykos.com/...

                          •  While I agree that there are a few posters... (6+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            stiela, gkn, npbeachfun, RAZE, lokiloki, blueoasis

                            ...who cannot discuss the Israel-Palestine issue without lapsing into antisemitism or anti-Arab racism, I don't see that LokiLoki's comment has anything to do with your background: he just says he doesn't like your "pro-Israel posts." Am I missing something?

                          •  SAH, this person made the offensive . . . (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            blueness

                            comments repeatedly and was admonished on numerous occasions to stop.

                            Last comment on this person.

                          •  an ugly way to stifle criticism... (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            stiela, npbeachfun, RAZE, FishOutofWater

                            ... is to characterize it as racist or anti-Semitic, as you are doing to my criticism of your arguments.

                            "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

                            by lokiloki on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:20:15 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  nyceve, what I find upsetting about your comment (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            stiela, npbeachfun

                            is

                            was admonished on numerous occasions to stop.

                            Who are the people who admonished the commenter to stop making comments?

                            What is their role on Daily Kos?

                            Is it a self-appointed role, or does someone else appoint them to serve as overseers to admonish people of certain offenses? And where are these offenses listed?

                            I know some people claim that as TUs they have the role to be judgemental, or police the comments of others, but anyone can be a TU if they make enough comments that get a certain number of recommends, so that group is too big and undefined to be a judging body.

                            I have seen these types of comments -  telling one commenter to stop doing something and bringing in claims that others say "Stop it," too - and I always wondered what the reasoning behind them was. What they remind me of is the schoolyard playground, where a person calls over a group of defenders to say  "You better cut it out." But having a bigger or smaller group of people who back up your ideas isn't what makes it right or wrong on whether a person said something inappropriately.

                          •  Admonished by other Kossacks, RAZE . . . (0+ / 0-)

                            commenters, read the thread.  It's all there.

                            Really final comment.

                          •  Yeah, I know you meant that. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Spit, npbeachfun, FishOutofWater

                            But it all depends on the views of the people who happened to be reading the diary at the same time.

                            The first I/P diary in which I posted comments I was torn apart. It really turned me off to Daily Kos and I saw this site as so like my right-wing acquaintances who are intolerant and unaccepting of views that don't personally benefit their own bank accounts.

                            A few days later, I read another I/P diary and posted a few comments along the line of my earlier comments. This time the people who were reading it were in agreement with my ideas and I got lost of recommends and no shredding.

                            So all your comment means is that the other Kossacks were people who supported your opinions at the time. A different day, different diary, and they may have admonished you not the other person.

                            But I do appreciate your response. I know there is a lot more to what you are stating than what appears here, and perhaps I'd have a different opinion if I had more knowledge of the "whole picture." But based on the comments here, all I see is someone who has a different opinion. I see no inappropriate racial or ethnic slurs.

                          •  If people don't regularly follow the I/P (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            npbeachfun

                            diaries they don't realize how sometimes the people that comment or write the diaries get attacked. Even when the diaries are promoting peace. When I first started reading and writing on I/P there were alot more personal attacks. Most diaries now seem to stay on the issues. And if we don't, that's what the troll button is for.

                          •  There is no widespread anti-Semitism or (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            stiela, mattes, npbeachfun, 4Freedom

                            anti-Arab racism on dailykos. There are isolated incidents of both that are properly disappeared. If you can find some (they are apparently widespread, so you should be able  to show us many) that have not been hidden, please show them to us.

                            People disagree about the acts and policies of all sides in the Israel-Arab-Palestinian conflict. I don't think you'll categorize that disagreement as racist.

                            David Sirota or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

                            by fairleft on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:38:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You misread my comment (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            RAZE

                            I said that there are a few posters--roughly evenly distributed on both sides--who are incapable of discussing the issue without lapsing into racism. When you have 2,000 years of antisemitism and a current environment of prejudice against Arabs and Muslims, what do you expect? The racist rhetoric is there and inevitably one or two people are going to use it wittingly or unwittingly.

                          •  sorry (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            RAZE

                            you're right, I misread you.

                            David Sirota or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

                            by fairleft on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 06:48:53 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't DARE use your full name (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            nyceve

                            in this context, SA!

                            But nyceve is the very LAST person I'd call either "defensive" or "strident." And I know many will agree with me.

                            That characterization was unnecessary. He was hit-and-run calling her out, not explaining why he disagreed with her or found her remarks offensive.

                            The whole Israeli/Palestinian conundrum is explosive enough as it is without that type of thing, even if his other comments have merit.

                            Pelosi to the Ringwraith Rumsfield: I AM NO MAN!!!

                            by Sharoney on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:37:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  be that as it may... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            fairleft

                            even if you disagree with my use of the term "strident" in defining her views, do you think that that justifies her concoction that i made repeated references to her ethnic background?

                            "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

                            by lokiloki on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 02:00:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Haven't read any of the (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            nyceve

                            pertinent diaries. And don't intend to. Thinking through the I/P problem is like trying to untangle a 2000-year old ball of rusty barbed wire.

                            I have no interest on researching your history with nyceve, so I have no opinion on your question. I was commenting on your characterization in this particular diary. Sorry.

                            Pelosi to the Ringwraith Rumsfield: I AM NO MAN!!!

                            by Sharoney on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 02:07:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It seems to me that, in nyceve's diary, where she (0+ / 0-)

                            has expressed the wish not to discuss the matter further, you are being rude to keep bringing it up.

                            I am considering whether this ought to be troll-rated.

                          •  Well, She brought it up (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            RAZE, lokiloki

                            And then wouldn't follow up. That seems a bit manipulative to me.

                          •  excuse me? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            RAZE, fairleft

                            so you think i should simply accept her grave, false accusations that i brought up her ethnic background repeatedly when criticizing her?  do you really think that that is fair?  that she can make such outrageous accusations, backed up with no evidence, and then not expect me to respond because she doesn't want to "discuss the matter further"?

                            "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

                            by lokiloki on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 04:56:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The first time you posted, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            blueness

                            in reply to another comment, she said:

                             lokiloki, I was wondering if you were going . . . (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                               jhritz

                            to turn up here.

                            I'm going to hold my tongue and ask you to do the same thing.

                            by nyceve on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:37:40 PM CST

                            There is no accusation here, only a request not to start an old quarrel again.

                            Why couldn't you comply with her request?

                          •  please re-read the conversation... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            fairleft

                            you will find that i did not respond to her "request" at all; at least not until she followed up her request by essentially calling me anti-semitic.  and it was only AT THAT POINT that i followed up with my "HUH??" response.

                            until that point i was commenting on someone else's comment.

                            when she made her initial "request" i had no idea what she was talking about.  i have had virtually no past interactions with nyceve.  it is not an "old quarrel".

                            "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

                            by lokiloki on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 05:16:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I see you are correct, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            blueness

                            it was another poster who questioned her about the matter.

                            Sorry for my error.

                            I still do believe, however, as a matter of principle, that when someone states they don't want to discuss a personal matter, as opposed to an issue, people ought to respect this request.

                            This is the source of many avoidable problems here, when people make it personal.

                          •  i agree... HOWEVER (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cowgirl, RAZE, fairleft

                            when someone falsely accuses another of making repeated, "unfortunate" comments on that person's ethnicity... well, that deserves a forceful response.

                            libel such as that should not be tolerated.  it is dangerous and unfair.

                            "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

                            by lokiloki on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 05:43:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, libel is intolerable (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mattes

                            I only wish that people would stick to the issues and the facts, and keep personality out of it.  Then we might have less of this unpleasantness.

                          •  I am the poster who asked nyceve the following: (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            npbeachfun, cowgirl

                            nyceve, are you proposing that people engage in communication in a civil manner (which is what I interpreted from your diary) or that they hold their tongue if they have opinions that aren't supported by you or certain other members?

                            I asked this question as the topic of the diary was on civility in diaries, and in my opinion, respecting the right of other people to have a different opinion and to express it is paramount to civility in any communication.

                            I have no interest in any feud between the diarist or any commenter and I found it appalling that my comment drew the personal indictment it did.

                            I did not ask any questions of nyceve to continue her discussion of a personal matter, but I did ask questions about how people react to other posters who have different opinions, since this is the subject of her diary.

                            So, in terms of not respecting

                            that when someone states they don't want to discuss a personal matter, as opposed to an issue, people ought to respect this request

                            there was no request for information on the personal matter she brought up other than the question about ethnicity, which she never addressed.

                            She did not have to comment on the personal issue. She could have responded to the real issue - respecting other opinions vs. silencing by group admonishment, rather than continuing to make personal attacks against another commenter.

                          •  Yes, I see that (0+ / 0-)

                            I had mistaken who asked the question.

                          •  I don't get on the nomination threads much (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            npbeachfun

                            but do people's stand on certain issues...like abortion or impeach get taken into account on being FPers?

                            That being said, sometimes it's hard to gage what is personal. I would think this is an individual perception. Something that might NOT have been an intentional slight still hurts someone.

                          •  HUH? (6+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            stiela, essexgreen, gkn, npbeachfun, cowgirl, RAZE

                            since when do I have a problem with your ethnic background?

                            I see, so you are criticizing my criticism of your pro-Israeli positions by classifying it as racist!

                            I never once mentioned your background.  I mentioned and criticized your POSITIONS.  it is low-down to assume that I was equating the two.

                            "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

                            by lokiloki on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:03:51 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thanks for the response, but I am having trouble (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            stiela, npbeachfun, cowgirl, lokiloki

                            seeing any references to an ethnic background. What ethnicity is even mentioned?

                          •  "has a problem with ... my ethnic background"?? (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            stiela, npbeachfun, RAZE, lokiloki

                            He obviously has a problem with your position on Israel and makes no comment at all on your ethnicity. But you accuse him anyway of having a problem with your ethnic background.

                            That's really poor behavior on your part, and Lokiloki deserves an apology.

                            And, by the way, he/she should apologize to you for repeatedly posting the same "no to nyceve" comment on the nominations page.

                            By the way, I absolutely love your healthcare diaries!

                            David Sirota or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

                            by fairleft on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:45:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  nyceve's libel (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            essexgreen, npbeachfun, cowgirl, RAZE

                            nyceve is engaging in the exact thing that she is complaining about in this diary.  

                            to wrongly claim that i made repeated references to her ethnic background when criticizing her positions is simply outrageous.

                            i'm sorry if this is beating a dead horse, but even false accusations of anti-Semitism are longstanding and highly destructive to the accused.

                            nyceve, i hope that you can clear this up immediately.

                            "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

                            by lokiloki on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:58:27 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I remember a Psychology 101 class I had many (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            essexgreen, npbeachfun, lokiloki

                            decades ago. It's been years, so I don't remember exactly what was said, but it was something to the effect that many people project their own shortcomings onto others by accusing them of doing what they themselves are doing.

                            I see it here often.

                          •  maybe, but who made the accusations here (0+ / 0-)

                            Lokiloki certainly didn't.

                          •  I know. I wasn't accusing lokiloki of doing this. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            npbeachfun

                            Have you read the comments upstream?

                          •  A human trait. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            npbeachfun
                          •  Here is the point I've been trying to make (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Annalize5

                            Nyceve writes:

                            Lokikoki, evidently has a problem . . . (3+ / 1-)

                            Who gave the troll rating to Nyceve?

                            Why aren't they identifying themselves?

                            THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF THING I AM QUESTIONING.

                            When someone does agree, they troll rate, often without showing their name.

                            No matter how much you want to drag this down into the details of the I/P arguments, THAT IS NOT WHAT I WAS ADDRESSING.  It is about the TU's who troll rate (see above) posters they don't agree with.  That is misuse of the TU status and a demonstration, right on this thread, as to why the admins need to clean that up.

                          •  groundless accusations of ethnic prejudice (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Annalize5, RAZE

                            fully deserve troll-rating. I didn't troll rate that post just because I think troll rating generally sucks.

                            I agree it is strange, and maybe a bad thing, that we don't see who troll-rated nyceve. I didn't even know hiding your identity was possible. I suppose someone is afraid of being on the bad side of a famous kossack.

                            David Sirota or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

                            by fairleft on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 06:57:12 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Someone told me about this thread. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            npbeachfun

                            ...I took one look and left. Then I thought about it and felt I had to come back.
                            I am sorry that people are being judged by their religion, race, gender, level of education....etc etc. The I/P issue is very sensitive. We are sensitive about over here....I can only imagine how the people living over there feel. I want to write a diary to address the question WHY DO YOU CARE???? I don't fully know yet...I am working on it.

                            nyceve, I am sorry (if) you felt I/P diaries might have triggered a personal attack. Personal attacks are not good....they change nothing in us. The don't change our minds and hearts...but they harden our hearts. I want to continue to write on I/P threads, but the energy has changed, the ball is in the Palestinian court now. STOP...not an i/p thread here.

                            Just an apology to nyceve if anything I did caused an attack on her.

                            After rereading my own diary today, I could have made my position clearer, that the final goal is peace in Israel/Palestine. And when I criticize Israel it is their ring-winged politicians. And the choices they have made.

                    •  Oh, Puleeze... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      citizen53, jimsaco

                      Context:  The title was referring to articles making that claim.  My diary stated in the first two paragraphs that I was not making that accusation and that I wanted to know what others reviewing the links I had posted thought.

                      I had no agenda.  I only wanted to see what the responses would be after hearing from my sources in D.C. that DKos had become a representative site for left-wing anti-Semitism (that is the buzz, whether you like it or not).  

                      I sought to give DKos a chance to prove they were wrong.

                      A few responses were thoughtful and gave me hope that there were thoughtful people here.

                      Most responses were like yours -- some far worse -- including more than a few that were blatant in their racism.

                      Here's my response to the responses:

                      http://www.dailykos.com/...

                      Members of Daily Kos need to do some soul searching and Kos itself needs better administration.  

                      •  in veritas, vino (6+ / 0-)

                        Members of Daily Kos need to do some soul searching and Kos itself needs better administration.  

                        So says you.  And so says your unnamed DC bigwig.

                        Look, if you go to the diary you reference, you will find that the administration system is working pretty well: the over-the-top posts ARE hidden exactly because they were troll-rated into oblivion.  That's administration in action, and it seems to work pretty well.

                        No doubt about it, your DC insider might be frightened by the criticism of Israeli policies here.  Why?  Because any politician even marginally associated with such criticism is often hounded out of town (Cynthia McKinney, etc).

                        But to equate such criticism with anti-Semitism is indecent.  And, indeed, to post a diary like yours (that received exactly 1 recommendation btw), where you pose a number of hypotheticals such as wondering whether the left wing is a cover for anti-Semites...

                        Such a diary, and such statements, are nothing more than a means to try to endrun criticism of Israeli policies.  You are simply resorting to one of the most common defenses.

                        [And, shoot, why not go both ways?  Why not look at peeder's diary where he claims that all Palestinians don't use birth control and are polygamists.]

                        "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

                        by lokiloki on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:59:35 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I will Stand & Defend (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        RAZE

                        Your Rights as well as Every Americans Even when I dont agree...

                        Amendment I
                        Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

                        Are you saying, you think some members of DKos should be Silenced?

                        Wouldnt it be better to stand up to "Your DC Sources" and remind them of The Bill of Rights an our First Amendment Right, even if you disagree?

                        "History is a race between education and catastrophe" H.G. Wells

                        by npbeachfun on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 04:45:13 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  For myself (0+ / 0-)

                        I feel safe here. Look at my sig. In my limited experience with I/P diaries there are, as SA said, a few posters who are rawly anti-Semitic. They are always vehemently challenged and I never lose any sleep over them because they are morons. There are more posters (I am not calling out any specific person here) who impassionedly criticize Israel. However this is evidence that as Yehudit of Kesher Talk says, Israel needs to "get off the plantation" of dependence on the USA because the non-Jewish voting public doesn't really care and can easily get fed up. This is not the rabid anti-Zionism which can be confused with anti-Semitism.

                        You weren't here when MB tried to defuse the situation during the war in Lebanon with his diary, "How do we know what we know?" Two weeks afterwards people were attacking each other just as badly. There was also a recommended diary where the author asked whether all the attention to the war took away from the purpose of the site or not. This is the point. The overwhelming majority of Kossacks run from these diaries like the plague. And evidently the place is far, far better than DU because there are articulate pro-Israeli people here.

                        -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

                        by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 04:58:04 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  As I wrote this (0+ / 0-)

                          I forgot that some people in shergald's diary were arguing that the Jews who purchased the land from absentee landlords really stole it because the landlords were absentee. You can see the absurdity of this. It proves at best that Palestinians felt the land was stolen. I have also seen the "Why didn't they carve a Jewish homeland out of Germany?" argument. People who make this simply don't understand that the Jews of Morocco, for example, have no claim to Germany at all.  

                          -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

                          by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 05:02:48 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Good. Gravy. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          jhritz

                          That Regupol is a jerk, isn't he?

                          -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

                          by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 05:09:14 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  As I think some more (0+ / 0-)

                            I remember that emptypockets has said she did not want to be affiliated because she doesn't agree with the organized Jewish community's position on Israel. I am also surrounded by people who have been to Israel, so they have a right to think their right-wing opinions count more. But that is not a faith issue. Even BTA, who I don't believe I am linking to, believes that OJ can sink itself without any reference to Israel.

                            -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

                            by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:36:47 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Gratuitous insults to BTA (0+ / 0-)

                            I knew Mis-nagid. Mis-nagid could have been a friend of mine. You, sir, are no Mis-nagid.

                            -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

                            by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:38:14 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  You framed the left in a negative way (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        RAZE

                        I think you would have elicited more helpful responses with a more even-handed approach. Europe has more problems with anti-semitism than the U.S., IMO. Anti-semitism is not a left vs right issue either. At this time I believe that there is much more animosity to Muslims than Jews in the U.S. However, this animosity is not helpful to either Muslims or Jews because it doesn't lead to rational problem solving.

                        George Bush's incompetent support of Israel in Iraq and Lebanon has done much to hurt Israel's interests. With friends like Bush, Israel doesn't need enemies.

                        I support moderate Israelis and Palestinians who seek peace. I am opposed to warmongers of all stripes.

                        •  I didn't do the framing (0+ / 0-)

                          That's the whole point of this diary, people replying without reading through or considering what a diary is actually saying.

                          From my diary:

                          I am not accusing the left wing of being anti-Semitic and this is not a question about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  For the record, I am one who believes that the Palestinians need alleviation from their heartbreaking status quo via a two-state solution as soon as possible.  You may or may not agree with me, but that is not the question.

                          My question is about the about growing accusations (see links below) that the Left Wing has adopted an anti-Israel stance as a cover for anti-Semitism.

                          I'm not taking a position on this.  I'm genuinely curious.  The questions are as follows:

                          You framed that I'd framed the left-wing, based on the title, which had been taken from one of the links I was asking about.

                          I did not.  I asked a question about the links I listed.  I got a lot of the kind of posts the diarist on this thread expressed concern about and came away convinced that many of the dKos posters -- at least the ones I was exposed to on that diary and several others recently -- were not reasoned or thoughtful people, but rather people who read only the title and then interpret the rest as they rush to reply from their own position.

                          Posts like yours are not helping to change that view.

                  •  Wasn't mattes diary recommended for what mattes (5+ / 0-)

                    said and not for the comments?

                    I think it is one of the few times I have seen more than a small group of Kossacks show any interest in an I/P issue. And yes, there were some racist comments made in the diary, as there generally are in I/P diaries, but without dialogue how will people ever learn how to consider other points of view?

                    And for the racist, let's kill-all-the-people-I-don't-like commenters who aren't interested in dialogue, they should be treated the same way any other outlandish troll is: ignore them and don't feed into them.

                    I would like to see more thoughtful I/P diaries on Kos and on the recommended list. They will always invite commenters with racist, prejudicial views, but does that mean the issue shoould just be ignored? It seems to me that has been happening for far too long now.

                    •  My complaint was about (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      jimsaco, blueness

                      Misuse of the troll rating and the recommendations.

                      People that don't agree with I/P point of view that is prevelent here are troll rated.  Diaries that support the point of view are recommended, along with the most vile comments (they're getting recommended, too).

                      It's neither a thoughtful nor a balanced view.

                      •  The rating system in general is a joke... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        RAZE, jhritz

                        and, in my view, strengthens the hold of those who are most popular or extreme, regardless of the content of their comments.

                      •  And you won't provide examples of that phenomenom (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        stiela, npbeachfun, RAZE

                        And, you mislead people into thinking mattes's diary was racist, and you don't apologize. That tells me what I need to know about you.

                        If you apologize for mischaracterizing mattes's diary as racist, I'll be happy to change my mind.

                        David Sirota or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

                        by fairleft on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:49:14 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You mischaracterize me (0+ / 0-)

                          I said there were racist comments.  And there were.  

                          I said they were hidden.  And there were.

                          If you look at those comments, you note that the most racist have the most recommendations and the posts arguing against their racism have less recommendations.

                          Do the math...

                          I also said the diary subject, as presented, was misleading, which it must have been, since Mattes himself changed the title after several people complained about the same thing.

                          Bedu are Israeli citizens, not Palestinians.

                          You mischaracterize me.

                          •  Here's what you said (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            RAZE

                            "Not to mention the abject racism coming out of the I/P diary posts.  The admins are either ignoring that or supporting it.  Either way, the buzz around the professional operatives is that DKos as a whole supports a racist view.  Whether it's true or not, it's not helping credibility...

                            This diary got a recommend:

                            (internet address of mattes's diary)..."

                            That indicates to people that you think mattes's diary is racist.

                            "I apologize if I misled people by seeming to say mattes's diary is racist" would be a good start.

                            David Sirota or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

                            by fairleft on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:24:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Taking things out of context is a common trick (0+ / 0-)

                            of the right...

                            Has it become a trick of the "farleft", too?

                            Here's the part of the post you left out:

                            This diary got a recommend:

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            Look at the comments, especially the hidden ones.

                            By leaving out my last line, you reframed it.

                            You are the one who should apologize.  But you won't, even with your history with posts like this that make the very point I'm trying to make about the overreaction of posters, you choose to slam me for making the very point you believe.

                            From Farleft (you) - Dec. 5:

                            Anyway, these diaries' specific tempest really is a small issue. The problem for me is the censoring and disappearing of anything that's critical from the left of an establishment Democrat. And the technique is the overreacting, exaggerating, sarcastic and inaccurate 'reaction diary' that gets heavily recommended by Dem Party insiders who can quickly rally a couple hundred recommends.

                            David Sirota or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

                            by fairleft on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 07:58:11 AM PST

                            My issue is and was the censoring and disappearing of anything that's critical of the TU's point of view.

                            Period.

                          •  Your comments immediately leading up to (0+ / 0-)

                            mattes's diary address repeatedly talked about dailkos racism. You probably know what your words implied, and now you run away.

                            Anyway, peace. Six-Year-Old Michal Brings Peace to Palestine/Israel

                            David Sirota or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

                            by fairleft on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 07:31:20 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You know most caring people would (0+ / 0-)

                            care more about the bedouins than the comments. Most caring people....

                          •  Your statement assumes my feelings. (0+ / 0-)

                            You're incorrect in your assumption.

                            I care that the Bedu (who are Israeli citizens, btw) are treated well.  I've spent some time with them during research for one of my books.  I admire them.

                            I also know the Bedu issue in Israel is different from the Israeli-Palestinian issue and the Bedu would be the first to tell you that.

                            I.E. There are many Bedu who serve in the Israeli army.  They're citizens, it's mandatory.

                            But then, many of them stay on past their mandatory service.

                            It's a different issue from pointing to misuse of troll rating or inappropriate responses, which is what this diary was about.

                      •  You said to look into the hidden comments (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        RAZE

                        and the remarks there are all by one poster who compared Jews to Hitler, save for one by a new poster who is certainly a troll.

                        In short, precisely the opposite of what you claim.

                        •  There was more than one (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          blueness

                          Though one would be enough.

                          The comments to the comments.  The ratings given the posters who were clearly racist.  It was more than one.

                          And then there was shergold's claim that the anti-Semitic posts were all done by a "right-wing Israeli troll trying to make DKos look bad."

                          Doh?

                          Were the people rating the anti-Semitic comments with a recommend also neferious Israelis?

                          Sorry, but sometimes a racist is just a racist.

                          And sometimes there's more than one...

                          •  And sometimes a racist (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mattes, RAZE, callmecassandra

                            is the one calling people antisemitic.

                            But only one such comment hit the HD list.  All the others were recommended by the Usual Suspects.  You take a one-sided view of this problem.

                          •  Sometimes... (0+ / 0-)

                            If someone blames Jews worldwide for Israeli policies, are they are racist?

                            If someone commits violence against Jews in places like Europe, because of Israel's policies, are they a racist?

                            If someone discounts the State Department's CRC worldwide report on anti-Semitism, by saying the Jews have it coming to them because of Israeli policies, are they racist?

                            Sometimes people are being called anti-Semitic, not because of their criticism toward Israel, but because they broaden their scope to include all Jews.

                            I know many who criticize Israeli policies.

                            I'm one of them.  

                            I do not consider them or myself anti-Semitic.  

                            I do consider anyone who broadens their scope to include all Jews in their criticism to be racist.  

                            I consider anyone who puts a recommmend on their posts to be the same.

                          •  I believe this is the proper distinction, (0+ / 0-)

                            but this is not the problem I am seeing most often in these diaries.

                      •  Not every pro-Israel poster (0+ / 0-)

                        is troll rated. Jay Elias has spent a long time here with comments which were received positively by a great many people.

                        -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

                        by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 05:05:01 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  That's true (0+ / 0-)

                          My point is that the TU's are using the troll rating to push their own agenda.  They may not do that with someone they already know, but they're too quick to assume someone they don't know -- who who does not share their views -- is a troll.

                  •  you indicated mattes's diary was racist (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    RAZE

                    "... the buzz around the professional operatives is that DKos as a whole supports a racist view.  Whether it's true or not, it's not helping credibility...

                    This diary got a recommend: [mattes' diary]"

                    That's why you deserve to be told to buzz off.

                    As for the professional operatives you hang with, they  should not be operating covertly here.

                    David Sirota or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

                    by fairleft on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:32:20 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Again, you guys keep making the point (0+ / 0-)

                      I didn't call Mattes racist.  I said the diary got a recommend, it had hidden comments that should be looked at per the way they had gotten recommends, as opposed to the way the posters disagreeing with their racism were treated.

                      Telling me to buzz off for raising the question.  Putting words in my mouth.
                      Shooting from the hip on the facts...

                      I think that's what this diary was complaining about.

                      You trying to make the point through demonstration?

                  •  you're completely full of shit (0+ / 0-)

                    you ask him to wear ALL of the hidden comments he did not write, but you of course do not wear ANY of the anti-arab postings by the likudniks in here.

                  •  The most hateful and racist comment (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    RAZE, callmecassandra, fairleft

                    in that diary was dragged out of the Hidden Comments by many who supported its sentiments.  You will not find it there, where it ought to be.

                    The trouble with mattes' diary was that it made the recommended list, which attracted the attention of many people with strong views and weak information, who don't normally read on such issues.  This was not a problem with the diarist.  Many posters were shocked and surprised to hear of the demolitions, about which they had not learned from the MSM.  This is part of what this site should be about, informing people about the secrets the MSM are keeping from us, to control the political process.

              •  I missed both of those (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                nyceve, cowgirl, jhritz

                I never read pontificator's diary as a "the GOP leadership" or "The White House", or anything like that - just Kolbe.  I rec'd it b/c I didn't know that about Kolbe, and not for any "Hastert knew" reason (maybe I was bit thick yesterday).  

                But I also missed your diary on that, and would have liked to have added to the conversation in real time.  I have issues with accuracy and knee jerk recommends (which were two of the three meta diaries I ever did) here and have for quite some time, so I am fully in agreement on that.

                I also had someone "sternly" tell me that they recommend what they damn well want so fuck off please, and someone who said that they recommend diaries they don't agree with (or think are totally accurate) but want to "flesh it out more".  Both to me are total bullshit, frankly.

                On the other, I don't read the Israel diaries - and I am jewish.  I just don't want to add more anger to my life ;-)

              •  Would you spend so much energy (0+ / 0-)

                on the anti-ARAB posts? There are PLENTY of them.

                •  I don't want to see (0+ / 0-)

                  Anyone misuse the troll rating for any reason.

                  I don't want to see anyone descriminated against.

                  And I don't want to see a double-standard applied to anyone.  

                  That answer your question?

          •  interesting you say this (30+ / 0-)

            because I wrote a few diaries this past week that I thought were top notch for me (on Iran and on Paksitan) and they didn't even get a mention or a second look from many.

            I just posted an angry rant about those who are still calling for an escalation in Iraq while sitting on their own butts.  

            I did it to feel better and get it off my chest.  I'll be interested to see how much attention that one gets....

          •  I've been consumed with finishing classes (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Land of Enchantment

            and dissertation and I guess I missed the dis-ing of the new FRers.  I think they're great; different voices, but there really has been a wonderful continuity.

            I think the tone around here has been rather confrontational and edgy, too--not to say that I haven't occasionally gotten into it myself:  mea culpa!  

            I have missed your posting, Susan.  I remember last year I thought it was you (rather than SusanG) who got promoted and I was happy to see it.  SusanG, however, was great despite my cheering for you....

            -7.88, -6.72. I AM paying attention, and I am so fucking outraged I can't see straight. The W in Fascist is silent; unfortunately, W isn't....

            by caseynm on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:19:34 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  The language has always been nasty (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cream City, suskind, blueness

        --even from a headline perspective: "smack down," "STFU," "A punks B," and any permutation of "fuck."  We've got a lot to unlearn.

        •  That language doesn't bother me. What does bother (6+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stiela, Spit, rhubarb, suskind, blueoasis, 4Freedom

          me is the name calling, the insults, the bullying, and intimidation. In general I hold no respect for the commenters who use such tactics and tend to ignore what they say, but often they cause a good diary to get off track.

          One thing that has always amazed me is that if the people here, who in some way share some common characteristics, can't communicate in a reasonable way than why do I hold out hope that the US as a country can resolve its conflicts, or that the people of the world will learn how to get along?

          •  I have been lobbying for peace within my home (0+ / 0-)

            I concluded that if we couldn't maintain peace at home it would be doubly difficult to hold out hope for peace in the world. The result has been a much more peaceful household.

            Maybe we can have peace here, on our home away from home, over the Holidays.............???????

            "Son, you're making the same mistake in Iraq that I made with your mother. I didn't pull out in time..." Bush 41 to Bush 43

            by 4Freedom on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 04:37:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  When good people can't get along... (38+ / 0-)

      Many of us save our daily dose of righteous indignation, vitriol, piss and vinegar for Daily Kos.  We have causes, we have agendas, we have opinions -- we're forced to temper them in our daily lives.  But here -- it's like the 3rd grade playground all over again, but with policy statements, political candidates and pundits replacing the monkeybars and "big kids."  Mix in the sugar-high of the elections, our frustration with the messes our government has created throughout the world (in our name) and the failure of the political and media spheres to seemingly do anything constructive -- and, well that's an explosive combination.

      As the old saying goes, "we only hurt the ones we love."  So, before writing the next scathing attack on our fellow Kossacks, maybe we should ask ourselves: "Is this how I'd treat someone I love who's standing right next to me?"

      •  Add to all those factors (25+ / 0-)

        the sense of anoynymity that blogs produce, and people will be inclined to behave like the petulant three-year olds they wish they could be in "real life."

        Except that when a Kossack launches his "virtual" flaming, or clicks his "virtual" troll-button, it hurts another real Kossack, in real time.  

        dKos is strange, because people can have full-on policy conversations with people they've never met, and to whom they feel not even a temporary obligation of politeness, let alone the longer-term sensitivity of friendship (though there are obviously a great many "actual" -- meat -- friends on dKos).  

        This is great in some ways, because people don't necessary feel limited by the intimidation of in-person confrontations, where maybe one feels that they can't express something properly.  It sort of seems like you can fire off a missive on Edwards' candidacy, or stem-cell research policy, or Iraq withdrawl timelines, without the awkwardness of in-person contact, the observation of social politeness.  When properly used, this can introduce a note of frankness into discussions that is frankly welcome.

        But for some process, this seems to give them carte blanche to be far more abusive to other community members than they would ever be if they had to look that person in the eye, or even hear his/her tone of voice.  Like emails or IMs, diary comments can be lousy at communicating affective or emotional information, and people are not made aware of the consequences of their flaming.  I would argue that most of those who engage in flamewars are not heartless, unempathetic people; it's just that some of the feedback loops here are insufficient to make them aware that they're engaging in behavior that would never fly in 'real life,' in a non-virtual, "meat" community.

        Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of nonthought. -- Milan Kundera

        by Dale on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:11:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, so true... (8+ / 0-)

          Brilliant comment.  It's tough to walk the line between injecting much-needed frankness and stepping on already-raw nerves.  Especially tough when we don't have the verbal and non-verbal cues of face-to-face communication.  Throw in the safety net of never having to meet the people you're arguing with...

          I've been waiting for this low probability (but almost certain, eventually) event to occur: Kossack A who is flaming Kossack B figures out that B is actually their next-door neighbor, long-lost college friend, cousin, spouse even!  If we treated each other like we actually could be next door neighbors, maybe the discourse would be a bit more civil.

          •  People could try apologizing if they (27+ / 0-)

            step on someone else's nerves and people who feel stepped on could express that without hurling an insult immediately and asking if the poster really meant to hurt their feelings.  Sometimes this stuff just comes down to not taking an offensive stance when something happens.  Not thinking the worst of the other person and giving them the benefit of the doubt before going all wild eyed and getting accusatory would probably diffuse 95% of the negative shit that goes on here.

            I've pissed people off, but I don't come here with the intention of pissing someone else off.  So if someone says nicely "Hey that pissed me off", I am inclined to apologize.  What do I lose by apologizing?  Nothing at all.

            •  "What do I lose by apologizing?" (5+ / 0-)

              Some people see apologizing (or admitting fault, poor judgment, etc) as a sign of weakness.

              Others see it as a sign of strength and self-confidence.

              Why this is, I have no idea...  But I tend to find people in the latter candidate more productive in the long run.  

            •  Two points (8+ / 0-)

              for one, I think you're absolutely right that too few people are capable of simply saying "I'm sorry" for saying things that are sometimes over the line. It's just not that hard.

              But I wanted to add that I think a huge number of posters to this blog, and people in general, have very much developed the point of view that including any nuance or considering anybody else's point or generally coming at anything without the "I'm Right!" attitude shows a lack of self-confidence and a general wishy-washiness. It's sort of a version of the attitude that is actually taught to us in the academic world, in some ways, though there's a difference between self-confidence and outright arrogance.

              Anyway, a lot of these are problems IMO that have been festering for a long time. There's been a certain contingent here for quite a while that mistakes "being offensive and mean" for "assertiveness". And the internets have always had a problem with the people who try to insult each other using the longest words possible.

            •  Another thing that has really helped me is when I (6+ / 0-)

              ask another person to clarify or explain their comment, and I say why. If the person responds in a sincere way, we often clear up any confusion we have. In some cases, this has helped to defuse flame wars, and I now view those individual's comments more thoughtfully instead of jumping to conclusions when I read something that seems controversial or inflammatory.

              When the person responds by not adressing the question and just hurls insults and name-calling, we get nowhere. But then I just take those people for what they are - ranters who want to inflate their own sense of importance who have nothing to say.

              •  Absolutely (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                inclusiveheart, npbeachfun, RAZE

                it's amazing how often a simple misunderstanding -- which can be easily cleared up if everybody calmly tries to figure out how to communicate better -- can turn into an absolutely ridiculous flamewar.

                I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt if they post something that pisses me off, and simply try to get them to explain better. Nine times out of ten, we agree more than we don't, and I was reading wrong or they were writing unclearly.

                If we'd all give each other a little more of that "benefit of the doubt", I think a lot of the problem would vanish. Not all, but a substantial chunk.

        •  Would be nice if Kos would, periodically,... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          npbeachfun

          say just what you mentioned in your comment.

    •  What diaries am I not reading... (21+ / 0-)

      I mean, I've been busy all week, I'm hardly in the in crowd or whatnot, I don't write diaries, yada yada yada, but where is all this nasty bs happening?!

      I check in regularly, I spend hours at a time hanging out here, I've seen really nasty weeks here in the last couple of years, but what with this diary and mcjoan's, I'm feeling really out of the loop, which is a pretty unusual feeling for me, even though I bet only two or three people here even recognize my name when they see it! What's going on, and how have I missed it, fcs?!

      Please someone, tell me wtf!

      "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

      by Unduna on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:51:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't read them (0+ / 0-)

        I don't care who's on the front page, and I don't read diaries about Obama.  I also don't read the comments that are attached to diaries that are written by big name politicians.  I don't miss those pie fights.  In fact, I didn't read any of the pie diaries either.  

      •  PESD-post election stress disorder. (9+ / 0-)

        I don't get it, either.  As I said before, I am clueless, and one of the last to know.  Heck, I can't keep up with the diaries that I like, and I can't even begin to keep every member conflict
        straight except for a few very obvious exceptions.

        I have noticed that the quality of diaries has gone down, but I think that the FP quality has gone up, especially since the elections are over and it has nothing to do with who is doing the writing.  

        I think that I shall name this PESD, post election stress disorder.  

        Wesley Clark 2008

        by Do Tell on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:34:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I feel the same way! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Unduna

        I've seen very little of this.  Maybe I'm outta the loop.

      •  I agree, where is it? Examples? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Unduna

        There are occasional nasty comments, which usually get troll-rated into oblivion. I think everything is working fairly well.

        David Sirota or Stephanie Miller for President, screw the wonks and whimps.

        by fairleft on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:57:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I've missed most of the fuss. (11+ / 0-)

        But if you're so inclined, you can often find the stuff that's gone totally off the rails at the bottom of jotter's daily list.  Lots of comments, very few recs still equals high enough impact to be included.  And one of those got my attention the other day via the comment section of jotter's:

        since you don't want the wrong people sullying your site

        It was so peculiar that even kos commented on it.  What did he say?  Well you might ask.  Here it is:

        Wow.

        ...

        Just wow.

        Perhaps the weirdest diary I've ever seen.  Not as spectacular as ErrinF, but much, much stranger.  Author is (was?) UID 18,865.  And amongst other things, apparently had some objections to the new FP selections.  This was same diary where peeder's last comment appeared.  It was bizarre enough on the part of the author that return, if any, is more likely under a new username.  Ditto on peeder.

        Somone said there was a difference of opinion between those two and Elise, about some kind of site policy.  (No clue what it was.)  Kos agreed with Elise, and there was bad blood about it.  (To say the least.)  That's all hearsay though - I missed the prefatory arguments leading up to the blow-up completely.

        I've had little interaction with the author, think peeder sometimes gets a little too peevish.  But so do I, so never gave it much though.  And I like Elise's action diaries, and her areas of interest, and service activities (Rescue, Top Comments kinda stuff).  It was all rather baffling.

        Unlike a lot of GBCW or flame war rants, this one had a lot of FPers commenting.  Extraordinary, really.  Elise says a lot of the flying sparks before the supernova happened late at night, so perhaps easier to miss.

        Me, I read a lot of diaries.  Not so often by the "famous" diarists.  A relict of when I had slow dial-up and hand problems loading the mega-comments.  So I learned to love the mid-tier.  A bunch of good writers, on good topics, who occasionally hit the rec list.  But often, like me, hover around 20-40 comments & Recs.

        It's good company there.  Don't often feel the need to go into the big tent, stratosphere, or whatever.  This place is so damn big, there's probably literally thousands of feuds/arguments that have flared up.  I know I've had a few.  And there's a few users I avoid because of it.  Don't read their diaries, don't rate or respond to comments.  And most of you would never know.  And most of us are like that.

        But I guess it blows up sometimes, doesn't it?

        I think it's always wise to be a little cautious.  I had a rather unpleasant experience with a cyberstalker some years back where I learned that lesson.  And even before the web, people who were involved in anti-Vietnam war stuff or Native American activism - a couple of lines I leave off my resumé when applying for work - know that there's likely to be agents provacateurs around, and it's good not to jump at every bit of bait that's thrown out there.  There's the lone, troubled nutcases, too.  But I'm assuming that Karl Rove, for example, pays someone(s) to keep tabs and stir things up here, too.

        We live in a tough world.  It's always a good idea to be a little careful.

        •  I read that diary (4+ / 0-)

          just to see what all the fuss was about.  The diary itself was a too-short whine about some prior mistreatment.  As you say, the comments took bizarre turns.  What left me puzzled is that this diary, after all was said and done, remains with a tag of Meta.  Why it wasn't considered a troll diary, compared to others I've seen given the troll diary tag, is absolutely beyond me.  Also, as the poster has proven and regular habit of insulting rants, why is he or she immune to banning?  It seems to be a regular occurence that's ok coming from that person.  None of my business...

          I guess all places will have in-crowds with their in-fights, the winners turning and eating the losers.  I'm not sure it really has to affect the whole site.  I agree with the poster who said maybe there could be a separate activist category, so diaries suggesting immediate, time-dependent action don't scroll away amid the in-fighting or blizzard of speculation on the best 08 candidate (or whatever is the meat of choice for the day).

          •  Good point on the tag. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            peraspera, 3goldens, Unduna, lizpolaris

            Though I'm not sure troll diary is the right tag either.  I just changed it to GBCW since you brought it up.  That probably is the right tag for it.  Will hold back on adding "mass suicide"...  We'll see if it gets changed again, eh?

          •  She's also been greatly appreciated around here (0+ / 0-)

            in times past. Makes it a lot harder to call "Troll!!", you know? Some respect, and probably some hope for a return to sanity, may have influenced things, maybe? I don't know. Too bad.

            "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

            by Unduna on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:53:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's a good point (0+ / 0-)

              and brings another question - can a person who isn't a troll write a troll diary?  That is, maybe the diary in question could be called troll-worthy, not that the person is always a troll who should be banned or something.  I'm not suggesting an answer, maybe new category names are needed...bad-hair-day diary?

        •  Thanks for trying to fill us in. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cream City

          You're the first true volunteer. I think anybody who really knows what went down is just exhausted and understandably unwillingly to disturb now quiet waters. Can't exactly blame them.

          I snorted about, found md's diary (thanks to a link below) and began to piece some of it together. It seems like quite a bit of temporary insanity run utterly amok. It also seems that the switch in FPs was a bit seismic for some. Ouch.

          Thanks, Land of Enchantment.

          "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

          by Unduna on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:47:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  One of my must-reads... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Unduna, vox humana

            ...is jotter.  I really missed him when he went on vacation awhile back.  (Much moreso than when Kos did, though it was a little funny that ErrinF was yelling at him immediately after he'd announced he'd be away.)

            As to jotter's daily offerings:  I'm kind of a datageek anyhow.  Someone mentioned diary #95 in the comments, and it was so cryptic it was intriguing.  Like a train wreck or something - I just had to look.  Still didn't have a clue what it was about.  Every question answered seemed to only raise ten more.

            Wildly peculiar.  Anyhow, glad to be of service.

            •  I've never been a jotter regular, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              4jkb4ia

              per se. But your point is very well taken; it certainly would be the place to check out, well, damn, what's a word for that...we need a word for site temperment, temperature, the socio-emotional dynamics...what's the word i want...

              We need a good word for it; we talk enough about it. It's kinda important, as we so regularly notice. One way to get a handle on it would be by starting with a good name for the damn thing. ;}

              Anyway, jotter. Good point.

              "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder, a secret order." Carl Jung

              by Unduna on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 03:59:01 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  What do you mean Peeder resigned? (31+ / 0-)

      From what?  His job with dk?  His UID# - did he GBCW privately? Was it the last Sirota diary?  He tried to keep people from attacking Sirota personally.  Was that it?  I don't know what is going on either, but I'm with you.  Sick of cliques, people stomping in and out of diaries proclaiming, nitpicking at diaries - not everyone is a PhD or an English major; the word police trying to make a race/civil war where there is none and someone else eager to help; trolls under the floor boards, personal attacks.  The list goes on.  Biggest proof of dkos cliquedom is BTD.  By his old name, he'd be on the rec. list every day.  Peeder quitting is totally unacceptable.  Who did what to him?  

      Dean, Feingold, Sanders, and Conyers are an all star cast.

      by dkmich on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:22:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  agree, agree, agree, dkmich . . . (9+ / 0-)

        With everything you say.

        Peeder? Damned if I know.  All I do know is he helped me with such good humor and concern, that I can't imagine what caused his departure.

      •  Who is BTD? What was his old name? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dkmich

        and I second the rest of your comment.  

        Wesley Clark 2008

        by Do Tell on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:37:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  If you do a search for (7+ / 0-)

        "Peeder" and "comments by" (which I just did), you'll find his "last" comment and you can go back from there to get a hint at what was happening. It's not completely enlightening, but provides some info. The diary itself was probably one of the ones nyceve and others are referring to.

      •  There are rules here. (4+ / 0-)

        This blog will only work if people follow the rules of the community. Peeder didn't like the rules. He didn't like the TU system. He literally stalked me around threads here for the last few months....telling me that I was wrong for asking people to follow the rules. I disagreed. I believe his real frustration came here and here.

        As far as this:

        Who did what to him?

        He wanted an "anything goes" environment...that isn't what exists...he wanted something that DailyKos isn't and can't be.

        •  Pity that Peeder (5+ / 0-)

          ended up getting his feelings hurt because he kept trying to undermine the site's self-policing policies. I hope he rethinks things and comes back.

          •  Exactly...and fwiw, I hope he comes back too. (3+ / 0-)

            I hope he doesn't stalk me if he does...but I hope he comes back to coexist peacefully.

            •  Oh for God's sake. (0+ / 0-)

              I hope he doesn't stalk me

              I think we have had waaaaaaay too much use of that particular verb lately.

              It pisses me off.

              •  Well...that's what he did Kimberly... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cowgirl, Nightprowlkitty

                so that's the verb I'm using.

                Sorry if you don't like that.

                •  What I don't like (0+ / 0-)

                  is the very ugly resemblance to Slouise that you've taken on.

                  Someone privately messaged me that you're her sockpuppet.

                  I don't think that's true, but I can see why someone would reach that conclusion.

                  I'm just stating it as plainly as I know how: nobody needs a second dose of that. Not even with Markos' imprimatur. He's a fucking fool to get in the middle of a snotflinging fight and say "Gee, I like what this person is doing to 'monitor the site'." That lead to absolute hell last time.

                  So, you'll understand if I'll be avoiding you and your pogroms.

                  •  Right. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nightprowlkitty

                    I understand that you're still angry with Markos regarding Slouise...but I'm not sure how that's an excuse to compare me to her...or frankly, to jump in the middle yourself.

                    If you were really avoiding me because you didn't want to get involved in the discussion, then why post a comment at all? That makes NO sense to me.

                    In addition to that...I can't stop laughing hysterically at this:

                    Someone privately messaged me that you're her sockpuppet.

                    The levels of paranoia here have reached EPIC proportions in the last week. And have you really resorted to the "Some say..." bullshit?

                    And where's your evidence for how "some" could reach that conclusion? I'd love to see it. I'd also LOVE to guess who that "some" is...in fact, I'm pretty sure I know exactly who that is and I'll just say I'm not surprised.

                    Go back and read my comments. I stand by them.

                    So, you'll understand if I'll be avoiding you and your pogroms.

                    My WHAT?! Do you even know what a pogrom IS?

                    Really. I don't think you do. Talk about a personal insult. Maybe you should go look it up before you toss that around...

                    You know what...maybe there's a lot you should look up. I frankly can't believe you jumped in here with NO knowledge of the discussion. Oh wait, yes I can...because lately, if it's a chance to take a shot at Markos, you're there!

                    I suppose I'll just take this insult as another from the crowd of people who just can't seem to get over the fact that I DON'T CARE if Markos says he supports my efforts to monitor the site. In the 2+ years I've been here I have ALWAYS assumed he did because he fucking created the system of TU in the first place and it's HIS list of rules that I've been asking people to follow in all that time. I think there's implied support right there. I didn't need him to come into the thread and say he supported me.

                    If I had to guess as to WHY he did that I'd say that I think it's because peeder was a paid employee when he worked on the comments system. peeder was advocating for an "anything goes" policy here at DKos...and I believe Markos wanted to let peeder know publicly that he disagreed with his vision of the site precisely because people may have been confusing peeder's opinion with Markos's opinion. I believe that was in fact what was beginning to happen...which is why this argument has gotten SO completely out of hand.

                    So...if this is how you "avoid" people...I suppose we'll be talking more?

                    Honestly, Kimberly...I have NEVER had a problem with you. I find it pretty amusing that your problem with ME relates back to the fact that you clearly hate Markos for whatever went down with you and the slouise thing.

                    Frankly, if you have a problem with Markos...take it up with HIM and leave me out of it. I don't want anything to do with that drama.

                    •  Very right. (0+ / 0-)

                      I understand that you're still angry with Markos regarding Slouise...but I'm not sure how that's an excuse to compare me to her...or frankly, to jump in the middle yourself.

                      A non-FP member taking it upon herself to 'clean up' DK?

                      That shoe fits.

                      I jumped in the middle? Does that imply I don't belong where I want to be on DK?

                      More SLouise-think.

                      And have you really resorted to the "Some say..." bullshit?

                      Bullshit? Are you calling me a liar? More Slouise shoes fitting your dainty footsies.

                      I didn't solicit the statement. Someone made it on their own. If you're such a smart cookie, you can easily figure out who said it.

                      Like I said, I didn't agree with it.

                      And have you really resorted to the "Some say..." bullshit?

                      Well, one person reached that conclusion. And the aforementioned similarities somewhat lend themselves to that suspicion.

                      I'd also LOVE to guess who that "some" is...in fact, I'm pretty sure I know exactly who that is and I'll just say I'm not surprised.

                      Congratulations. You get a cookie. But, I really can't resolve 'I'm not surprised' with all the indignant protestation, but we'll just gloss over that and skip merrily on.

                      Talk about a personal insult. Maybe you should go look it up before you toss that around...

                      I know exactly what I'm saying.

                      I frankly can't believe you jumped in here with NO knowledge of the discussion.

                      How dare you presume I have NO knowledge of the discussion? Are you so cozy with TPTB that you can track what threads I read and don't read?

                      the fact that I DON'T CARE if Markos says he supports my efforts to monitor the site.

                      You are very convincing in your not caring.

                      Honestly, Kimberly...I have NEVER had a problem with you. I find it pretty amusing that your problem with ME relates back to the fact that you clearly hate Markos for whatever went down with you and the slouise thing.

                      I made these statements because I have no interest in seeing the Slouise thing ressurrect itself. I still have scars from that and don't feel like seeing them turn into open wounds again. Nor do I like the idea of seeing anyone else go through it.

                      If you're not going to act like Slouise, then we have no problem, and all is well.

                      I'm uncertain, and thus, uneasy.

                      Frankly, if you have a problem with Markos...take it up with HIM and leave me out of it.

                      You can't be serious. Responses from Markos = hateful public "I don't know what you're talking about" lies. Or privately, his responses are ::::crickets:::

                      Markos lets other people get their hands dirty for him.

                      If you want to be one of those dirty hands, just know what you're doing and why. Since you're such a smart cookie, you don't need my help with that, so we'll have nothing else to say. And since you're such a do-gooding TU, you'll never do a single thing wrong. So everything's good.

                      Right?

                      •  You are seriously showing (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Nightprowlkitty

                        your paranoia here.

                        A non-FP member taking it upon herself to 'clean up' DK?

                        That shoe fits.

                        So any TU is all of a sudden an slouise sockpuppet?

                        Talk about a personal insult. Maybe you should go look it up before you toss that around...

                        I know exactly what I'm saying.

                        And I'm glad to see you sticking by your pogram insult. Here's a definition for you. Go read...and then come back and give me PROOF for how I apparently have pograms.

                        You really want to stick to your guns on that one?

                        I wouldn't if it were me...but then again, I'd NEVER say anything so fucking insulting and dishonest about someone else unless I had some goddamned proof.

                        Another conspiracy theory from you, I suppose.

                        •  Calling me (0+ / 0-)

                          a conspiracy theorist is an interesting way to start a snowball of censure against me. Everybody knows CTs are not tolerated. So, throw Kim in with those 9/11 CT nutjobs, and you'll be rid of her.

                          Subtle! Effective, without looking quite so nasty.

                          I think there are resemblances between your actions and Slouise's.

                          That's all.

                          If that's a problem for you, then I suggest you think of why.

                          If not a problem for you, then I think that proves what I've said, and you'll be continuing on your merry way.

                          •  I said you were promoting (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Nightprowlkitty, CSI Bentonville

                            a conspiracy theory because THAT is what you're doing in the other thread. Right here.

                            All of a sudden you've created this conspiracy that somehow targets you...you've accused DH and myself of being in cahoots somehow...then when you were asked for proof...you said you had some in an email. Show it or stop spouting the theories.

                          •  I'll do as I goddamn please (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hrh

                            you bossy Slouise clone! You're not an FPer so don't think to give me orders.

                            I put forth no conspiracy theories. I put forth information I got from an email about how the SLouise thing evolved.

                            I never linked you and DH. I linked DH and Slouise.

                            Thank you for proving what you are.

                          •  Well then...by all means continue on (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Nightprowlkitty

                            with your paranoia.

                            Still sticking by that pogram comment??

                            That's some pretty outrageous fucking accusation you're making there.

                          •  Then troll rate me (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hrh

                            and report me to Markos.

                            Those are your options. You don't have any right to lecture me or bully me or uprate insults thrown my way.

                            Those are Slouise tactics, you're engaging in them, and if that's what you want to be - that's on your conscience.

                            My conscience doesn't bother me one fucking bit in pointing out what's starting up again. It didn't bother me the first time to tell the truth.  I'll pay whatever price the thugs make me pay for it. If you and them succeeed in banishing me, it makes what I said so glaringly true that even you couldn't deny it.

                          •  I'm not bullying you Kimberly. (3+ / 0-)

                            I'm questioning your assertion that I have apparently started up "pograms". That's a BIG fucking accusation and I think I have the right to ask for evidence as to where you got that idea...especially in light of the definition of a pogram...let me put it HERE for you:

                            Pogrom (from Russian: погром; from "громить" IPA: [grʌˈmitʲ]- to wreak havoc, to demolish violently) is a form of riot directed against a particular group, whether ethnic, religious or other, and characterized by destruction of their homes, businesses and religious centers. Usually pogroms are accompanied with physical violence against the targeted people and even murder or massacre. The term has historically been used to denote extensive violence, either spontaneous or premeditated, against Jews, but has been applied to similar incidents against other, mostly minority, groups.

                            That's from wikipedia...the link I gave you above. Now, show me PROOF of me having done that or apologize for it. If you can't do either, I will trollrate you because that accusation is worthy of a trollrating.

                            I have tried to engage you in a discussion. I have tried to give you multiple opportunities to apologize or provide proof. I don't like to give trollratings to people I don't believe are trolls without trying to hash things out first...but this is getting ridiculous.

                            I frankly couldn't give a damn if you get banned. Don't imply that that is my intent though...because it isn't. My intent was to point out to you just how fucking outrageous your claim was...

                            You keep referring and comparing me to slouise. I think that's your problem...not mine. You seem to have a pretty serious grudge about how that situation was handled. I wasn't involved in it, so I'd appreciate you NOT trying to involve me now.

                            Apologize or take the trollrating. Your choice. I'm done.

                          •  Well, (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Thistime, vcmvo2, Elise

                            I was going to do this before you decided to post this. Only I was cleaning out my closet.

                            You're right. It was too much of a word to use, even as a euphemism. I was wrong. I am sorry and not because you told me to be. I apologize, and not because you feel you can demand it of me.

                            I can't unring the bell. Wish I could.

                            I believe you should troll rate me.

                            I frankly couldn't give a damn if you get banned.

                            I hope that's true. I have pissed you off, and I'm sure you won't forget it.

                            You keep referring and comparing me to slouise.

                            I don't think you're the psycho she is, but the road to hell is paved with good intentioned people. Maybe, hopefully, you have fewer problems, and can use better judgment.  

                            As I've said more than once - if you aren't Slouise-like in your actions, then we have no problem, and all is well. But there's been more than one thing you've done that have set off my warning bells.  Maybe my bell system is out of whack, but nevertheless - I'll be goddamned if I ever am victimized like that again, nor will I watch it happen to someone else.

                            The real problem is that with Markos' creation of, and subsequent blind eye to the Slouises of this site. So far, he has selected at least one little 'helpful TU' that abused her power. The little Hall Monitors  mean well and serve his purposes ... at first. And then they serve their own purposes and believe that their purposes, and the site's purposes are one and the same. And then they're just angry and lash out with troll-ratings and hate.

                            You're right - I have a huge grudge against Markos about this. I didn't say anything about it for months, even after SLouise and her sockpuppets were banished and everything I had thought was vindicated. But after it dragged on and on beyond a reasonable period, I did. Especially when he mocked me and lied to my face, and to all, about what he had done.

                            To the extent I let my bitterness about Markos' hateful and unjustifiable actions color my judgment about you who he designated his new helpful TU, I apologize as well.

                            If you want me take you in good faith, Elise, then perhaps you will understand that I, too, want to be taken in good faith.

                            And that's all I have to say.

                          •  Thank you. (4+ / 0-)

                            I appreciate your apology.

                            So far, he has selected at least one little 'helpful TU' that abused her power. The little Hall Monitors  mean well and serve his purposes ... at first. And then they serve their own purposes and believe that their purposes, and the site's purposes are one and the same. And then they're just angry and lash out with troll-ratings and hate.

                            This is not me...not now, never has been, never will be. As I said before I think very carefully about trollrating people I don't believe to be trolls and I always try to engage in discussion first...unless of course the comment is just totally appalling in some way...I can't think of any examples of that at the moment though.

                            Thanks for the apology. I apologize as well. I didn't mean to sound bully-like. If it came across that way, I'm sorry.

                          •  S'cool. (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            vcmvo2, Elise, CSI Bentonville, RickBoston

                            This is not me...not now, never has been, never will be.

                            That makes me feel a lot better.

                            I would hope that we can put this behind us.

                            Happy holidays to you.

                  •  You just claimed DH was Slouis in another thread (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nightprowlkitty

                    Make up your mind.

                    Criticism of content is not a personal attack.

                    by clonecone on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 12:44:02 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I never said that. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      hrh

                      I said he 'created' her, in single quotes.

                      It's a euphemism.

                      I used the exact word - 'created' - that someone said to me as far as the DH/SL relationship. That someone, BTW, ought to know.

                      I could have as easily said 'used' her, 'guided' her, 'prodded' her, whatever.

                      HTH. HAND.

                      •  Aha! (0+ / 0-)

                        I understand what you mean now.

                        And yes, I agree, that's probably what happened.  She was a convenient tool and was utilized as such.  But then, given carte blanche authority and thriving under the attentions of the powers-that-be, she grew into a monster.

                        I do see the similarities between then and now.

                        Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs.

                        by hrh on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 04:01:03 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Nobody needs a sequel to that nightmare. (0+ / 0-)

                          I explained to Elise elsewhere (while retracting the word 'pogrom' which was way OTT and uncalled for and wrong) that Markos' little stamp of approval on TUs is what causes this. That action , in itself, isn't objectionable, it's that he turns a blind eye to their actions afterwards, and fails to see that they get way out of control.

                          It may or may not happen again, with Elise, or someone else.

      •  Someone said that peeder and Kos (0+ / 0-)

        disagreed on some point.

        I appreciated peeder, but I think we all have to keep in mind whose name is on the top of the blog.  People start to think this venue belongs to them, that they have a right to make demands.  Well, they don't.

        Running this place has to be about the biggest cat-herding headache there is, but the influence of DKos is in large part due to its numbers.  With the numbers, come the headaches.  In exchange for this, Kos gets to have things his own way.  If he screws up and everyone leaves, that's his call.

    •  thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou (18+ / 0-)

      As I'm a really minor poster and have no substantive diaries to my name, I knew that if I'd written something like this, it would have just disappeared.  Thank you for all the work you do, and for speaking for what I believe are the majority of Kossacks.

    •  Hi! (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jerome a Paris, casperr, 4jkb4ia, RAZE, bunk

      I tend to stay out of diaries with flaming going on. I dunno, being angry just makes me feel icky. I KNOW anger can be a useful tool in righting injustices but everyone on Daily Kos is pretty much on the same side. The best way to form a consensus is to be civil to one another and listen to other people's opinions. I don't agree with people who think impeachment would be a bad idea but it's important to listen to the other side because if we ARE looking to do it we need to know about all of the ramifications beforehand. If the Republicans weren't so lovey dovey with each other and started asking questions about whether Iraq REALLY had WMDs and whether or not it we be a good idea to invade we might not be in this mess.

      LISTEN to the people with different opinions than you who want the same goals. It COULD save you a lot of grief in the future.

    •  I was that one person (22+ / 0-)

      who noticed you weren't around.  And I was also pretty vocal (as I have been to some others) about how much the discourse around here has devolved lately.

      And how personal people have been getting, and the vendettas which are following from thread to thread.

      Which makes me not want to read comments in diaries that I would otherwise enjoy.

      Which is a shame.

      And bullshit.

      Glad you are back, eve.  Even gladder that you missed this stupid horseshit.

    •  Flames are OK in my book (5+ / 0-)

      Personal attacks are not. Don't ask others who might be getting ready to go into surgery, for example, not to express feelings. We all have our personal situations that affect our posts. That should be understood. We aren't all nice. I think flaming is an honored internet tradition.

      That said, your last diary was great. I agree with you that Peeder deserve our thanks. I hope he comes back soon.

    •  Thanks nyceve - well done. (11+ / 0-)

      The other day I getting really bored with the quality of "debate".  I come here to learn.  I already know every swear word and insult in the book so on that day, I learned nothing new. Very boring.

    •  yepster depster (4+ / 0-)

      Be the change you want to see in DKos.

    •  Thanks so much for this diary (8+ / 0-)

      Last year I was addicted to this place, and since the election I almost forget to check it. The self-appointed "everything police" are making it unbearable.

      Spelling and grammar police, concern trolls, concern troll police, trolls who always post the same propaganda, trolls who post just little enough crap to stay under the radar and not get banned yet just enough to get their jollies from trolling... GAH.

      Unfortunately, there are enough people here, the same as a respectible city, that what you're seeing is a microcosm of human nature. Certain personality types take over, others with great things to say are stamped out, and in the end the signal to noise ration gets worse and worse.

      I find myself more and more drawn to the individual caucuses which are still small and focussed enough to be useful. I'm still here, will be for a good while, but I haven't posted a diary lately either because it's just so damn draining, especially having to defend yourself from the people who will find some way to be a pain in the ass, whether because of a misguided sense of justice/authority or because they enjoy being a pain in the ass.

      There's no place like home... (click) There's no place like home... (click) There's no place like home... (click)

      by willers on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:55:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  There are cliques? (7+ / 0-)

      Every once in a while I'll see evidence of a feud, but jeez . . . I'm so out of it that I didn't even know that there were cliques.

      Talk about a waste of mental energy . . . but then again, I've seen many good fora get ruined by VR social games, fluff, chit-chat and the like.  Here's hoping that all the fluffy stuff doesn't clog the blog for good.

      Lately I've noticed the volley of "Wake up, idiots" and "Talk of 2008 makes me want to yack" type diaries hitting the recommnded list and hope that these and others help hammer out the next plan of attack; there is so much to accomplish, politically.

      Eve, working with fredb on health care, I've noticed that his (few) more popular diaries and in yours, in the comments sections, complaining predominates, and that has been a frustration of mine.  We're all getting the picture of how bad things are.  We all like to complain.  Now what next?

      I want to commend you, DrSteveB, fredb and everyone else who have a vision of the next thing to do.  More specifically, I want to thank you and YearlyKos for the upcoming health care panel and forum; we need to do more than just complain, and I think you're on the right track.

      What do we have to do to break through the K Street barrier and get Congress to quit feeding the war maw and give us what every other country has?  Getting bigger and better microphones, raising public awareness, chnaging expectations, reframing, pushing our legislators, closing out the oligopolies . . . we're starting to do some of that, and Daily Kos plays an important part.  So Eve, use your special status and keep banging the drum.  Keep pushing the envelope.  It's important.  We need to pry Wall Street's fingers from our throat.

      Thanks.

    •  Wow, I guess I'm really lucky (0+ / 0-)

      I keep missing these things.  Go away for a week here, have to work a 90 hour week there, get a new computer game and disappear for a week.  I've missed three of the last four major wars, while being around for most of the time in between.

      I'm going to be missing the rest of this one too... sadly, it's the 90-hour work week thing this time.

      -fred

    •  I'm in 100% agreement with you, nyceve. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fabooj, redmcclain, unit24

      And I don't take part in them either. They seem to me to be irrelevant and ridiculous. Generally I disregard them, pay no attention to them. This is my first time to comment about it in 1 1/2 years.

      Why do people want to spend time fighting each other here when there is so much to do to expose and rail about the injustices, crimes and stupidities of our government?

      IMO the people who fight, aside from someone who is protecting himself/herself from unprovoked attacks, are confrontational junkies, sick, or perhaps GOP terrorists who want to mess up dkos.

      We will never eliminate poverty in America unless we do it comprehensively and nationally....no more incrementalism. - John Edwards

      by Gorette on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:47:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Astute question (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RAZE, Gorette

        Why do people want to spend time fighting each other here when there is so much to do to expose and rail about the injustices, crimes and stupidities of our government?

        Perhaps often its an inability to recognize that there are different means to the same end.  What works for one may not for another; what speaks to one segment of an audience, may not speak to the rest, but it doesn't logically follow that the differences are antithetical.

        It's competition gone crazy.  Competition is essential to promoting excellence, but when it becomes petty or repressive, then it is destructive.

        •  I disagree. I think it's because the differences (0+ / 0-)

          expressed here are important.  For example, we have an impeachment poll out today that puts 75% of those responding on record as supporting impeachment now.  Whatever your views on impeachment -- and I know that yours and mine differ -- that says something about our community and affects how seriously our aggregate view is taken (for better or for worse.)  We argue about such things here because such things matter to our collective enterprise here.

          Here's my comment from yesterday about this from mcjoan's diary; this probably is not the last time that I'll post it around here.  (I've taken out the names of recommenders because I don't want to appropriate their goodwill for use of this comment here):

          This may be an unpopular opinion ... (32+ / 0-)

          but I think that one reason we've been having some of these controversies is that they are actually substantive and important -- and they were suppressed during the election, when we were all making common cause and on tenterhooks over numbers.

          The three recent pie-fights that come to mind are (1) Obama, (2) impeachment, and (3) the "rabble rousing" photo diaries (which overlaps with #2.)  In turn:

          (1) The Obama related issues are actually quite important.  Is he on our side, or Lieberman's?  Is he alienating non-religious voters with his take on the role of religion in establishing political convictions?  And the meta: are we criticizing him too much, too early, the wrong way?

          (2) The impeachment issues are incredibly important.  What should our role be now that we control Congress?  What are proper grounds for impeachment?  Do we have to be fair?  Do we worry about precedent?  Do X, Y, and Z constitute impeachable offenses?  How much ought we worry about the political reception of our actions versus doing what we think is right and damn the consequences?  How well can we predict the consequences anyway?  Is much to be lost by waiting?  Will what we are waiting for ever come anyway?  Huge stuff.  Important stuff.  Non-mainstream-media stuff.

          (3) This is the least well-defined of the pie-fights (the one involving me and OPOL, as well as Miss Laura, hekebolos, PsiFighter37 versus buhdy, occams hatchet, and many many others) and the most purely meta.  The issues are also very important.  How important is it for us to keep ourselves motivated and angry at the real abuses of BushCo versus making sure that our arguments always pass logical muster?  To what extent does the use of photos to whip up our anger provide a fair substitute for analysis?  Do we need to worry about how are arguments appear to others?  Is this kind of diary always OK, or generally OK but not so often or so highly recommended, or something to be avoided?  What sort of "society" are we trying to develop here?  What is our collective purpose(s)?  What crosses the bounds of acceptable criticism?  To what extent should we just leave people alone to do whatever it is they enjoy here, even if it takes up many of the most visible diary slots?  Serious meta issues.

          If these things had come up before the election -- and they were around -- I would have told people to STFU -- and I've been deeply involved in two of them.  The point at that moment was to elect Democrats.  We were activists, but we were also largely sharing the experience of being fans and rooting on our team.  Now we're basically back to being mainly activists again.  Of course we're fighting.  If the proper path before us were obvious, we might not need to.  But it isn't.  And so we hash things out.

          Unpleasant, perhaps, but many unpleasant things are also sometimes necessary.

          (NOTE: please, please, please let's not discuss the merits of any of these issues.  If anyone thinks I've mischaracterized an issue or a side, state your case, and I will try not to argue with you about it.)

          My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

          by Major Danby on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 02:08:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I've tried to play peacemaker... (7+ / 0-)

      here and there, ever since the elections. I think that's when this all really started. Lately, I've also taken a step back from getting engaged. I just don't seem have the pull to make a difference, it seems, and that's just the reality. So be it, it's not about ME anyway.

      Here's where I think things changed. We got a win, a BIG win, in Nov and suddenly, some are too damn big for their britches. There's ego all over the damn walls! The self-righteousness is think as pea soup. Here's my little piece...

      I've been mentioning this trend to folks around here since a week after the election. Gotten the finger wag and told it's just a little rough and tumble. Then the FP's and rec list regulars start riding in on this. Good to see, and hopefully it starts to have more of an impact.

      I'm grateful to see this concern being addressed more widely. Particularly from you nyceve. I'm sorry, very sorry, it's intruded upon your writing. The things you write are some of the most important concerns we have to address and work to fix.

      This might be the first time I've ever commented in one of your diaries. Mostly cause I just can't stick around, the healthcare stories are sometimes all too familiar. But I rarely fail to check them out.

      In the entire time I've been a TU, I think I've handed out maybe 3 trollrates. I'm very judicious in the use of that responsibility. I'm wondering if I've been TOO conservative with them lately.

      I've decided on hanging back around here, until after the holidays and congress gets back in session. I'm hoping that once things start rolling again, we'll get back on the right track. I'm not sure that'll actually come about, but at that point, I'll jump back in one way or another. At that point, I plan on being more assertive in applying the needle to the ego balloons too.

      All of us who are maintaining our focus and ability to remain civil, need to step on disrespect whereever we find it. Not as some sort of diary police, per se, but as peacemakers. As Ghandi said, and so many are fond of quoting:

      We need to live the change we wish to see in the world.

      It applies in our interaction with each other HERE, just as much as anywhere else. It all must begin with the respect we owe each other, even while vociferously disagreeing. The fact that someone is HERE, engaged, concerned, and willing to debate the possibilities, should be reason enough to maintain such respect.

      Nothing else but that respect is acceptable.

      With nothing but respect for you, and everyone else here, thanks again nyceve. I still have hope.

      Respect"Pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living." Mother Jones

      by Erevann on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:36:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  the will to power (0+ / 0-)

      i recall fondly those days when commenting on here was just for each other.  no audience but the people involved.  we didn't have to worry about the site's impact on the larger political discourse, because it barely had any.  this was pre- and mid-dean.  when we had no chance of being read by some creep in washington and didn't want to be.  when we were a rabble-rousing bunch of louts.  i'd rather it be this way, with establishment credibility.  sort of.  i liked the feeling of exploding out from nothing, the overcoming of resistance that so excited nietzsche.  the feeling of power you get from making the transition OUT of powerlessness.  now all we have is a sort of muddling along, a jockeying, an ossification and no more concrete horizons.  we are the establishment.  it's just the establishment is now a cruder place because of our entrance.

      "Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in. Great for solving problems after it creates them." --Isaac Brock, indie rocker imitating wittgenstein

      by Beyondo98 on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:39:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There is some of "What do we do now?" (0+ / 0-)

        Impeachment and 2008 are so vicious because they are the keys to what we do now. But Glenn Greenwald has not given up ranting because he knows that the mainstream political culture is so insular and smug. DKos can help to break the insularity and self-satisfaction as much as it ever did.

        -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

        by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 05:43:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  does that go for you too? (0+ / 0-)

      after all, you wrongly accuse me of making repeated references to your ethnic background.

      "A dog starved at his master's gate, Predicts the ruin of the state." -- William Blake

      by lokiloki on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:14:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hey Eve, I've been lost in my own reverie (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nyceve

      since the midterms.  I haven't felt the sense of urgency to post diaries.  I always like what you write, and your comments.  If I'd realized there was a fp election going on here at the Kos, I'd have paid more attention.  But, I've been busy trying to make enough money to pay my frigging health insurance.

      Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you.

      "United we stand, divided we fall"

      by Cassandra77 on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 02:57:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Disagreements happen.... (0+ / 0-)

      If we all agreed, all the time, we wouldn’t be a members of The Democratic Party.  

      I am sorry you are hurting and the lose of your insightful friend... Yet, I cant help but wonder what our Country would be like today if discourse had been silenced...

      Our founding fathers left us two volumes of letters full of: vile, pain, outrage and self dough they words lived on, in the "Debate of the Constitution" an astounding window into our passed, and I dare anyone to read them and not come away with what a Miracle This Republic really is...

      "History is a race between education and catastrophe" H.G. Wells

      by npbeachfun on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 03:51:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Deep breath it is, then (15+ / 0-)

    Happy holidays!

    You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

    by Clem Yeobright on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:28:07 AM PST

  •  Three cheers, nyceye (19+ / 0-)

    Make it four.  Nicely said.  Hopefully, between you and mcjoan, folks will listen.  Hopefully is kind of a strange limbo land or purgatory, however.  Hopefully, Bush will get the hell out of Iraq, too.  

    A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. - Aristotle

    by DWG on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:33:09 AM PST

  •  Do the easy thing (33+ / 0-)

    But wading through all the mud is very labor intensive, time-consuming, distracting--and yes, boring.

    Don't bother wading in. It's not a requirement. Do your own thing, create your own wading pools where the scenery is more pleasing.

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:34:02 AM PST

  •  Perspective (13+ / 0-)

    The meta politics here can overwhelm and distract.  I stay away from most of it.  For me, some detachment is necessary in order to relate to this site effectively.  And I recognize that this site is only one of many places in the universe where work is getting done.  

  •  I have no idea what is going on (28+ / 0-)

    since I haven't read any of the nonsense. So maybe it would be helpful to have a one-paragraph summary of what, if anything, is up with this site...for those of us who don't really care for all the bs-wars, but get buffeted by them anyway.

  •  I really did not notice battles (15+ / 0-)

    I guess I don't care enough.  Congrats to everyone.  Keep on doing what you are doing nyceve. You are a valuable voice here as are many people who do and do not regularly make the rec list.

  •  Opinions (11+ / 0-)

    One of the things that seem to be common EVERYWHERE in bloggerdom is the personal attachment people take toward opinions.  We all have them, and they can be approved or debunked with opinion or data, but personal attacks on those who have shared their opinion is just detrimental to everyone involved and doesn't get anyone any further toward progress.

    DK should be a marketplace of ideas, not of labels, and the only way it can stay that way is if everyone appoints themselves as a guardian of that standard as it regards their own personal behavior.   It's an impossible practice to meet all the time, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try as hard as we can as much as we can to treat others as we want to be treated ourselves.  Another person's shoes, etc.

    I know I haven't been consistent with this myself.  I appreciate nyceve's diary as a reminder to do better.

    PSoTD is more than letters, but not quite yet a word.

    by PSoTD on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:37:16 AM PST

  •  Eve,,,, (28+ / 0-)

    Here's my take on it, and I've been here since the start.

    I don't see the people I know getting ruder, more impolite, etc.  It's just that there are so many, many more people now.  I think the percentage of assholes is the same, to be blunt.  It's just that because of the growth of the site, there are more of them.

    Every year at this time I get bummed, with the FPers being replaced.  We get comfortable with the old, and change is hard for some of us.

    I do agree with you about shutting up if you don't like someone, and I felt the same about the pie wars, etc.  I just don't read/comment on threads I think are mean, nasty, or ridiculous.  But the squeaky wheel does get the grease, and some people just can't ignore or pass over.  They just HAVE to put in their two cents.

    Notice though, that over the years, many of the biggest talkers have started their own blogs, and left this one for the most part.  We do see some cross-posting, but there are some controversial posters who have left of their own volition who I am glad to see gone.  

    It's a shame about peeder, but the site will go on.  As always.  Someone else will step up to the plate.

    "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2900+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

    by Miss Blue on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:37:21 AM PST

  •  Walter Mitty Says Thanks (42+ / 0-)

    As a prime purveyor of milquetoast and esoterica, I say thank you for your support.

    I can't fathom what was in the mind of the folks who nominated me, but I do appreciate it.

  •  I said this (31+ / 0-)

    ...in another diary on this subject.  People need to step back and realize that their opinion is not carved on stone tablets.  A little of that 'reasonable people can agree to disagree' goes a long ways.

    Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

    by Barbara Morrill on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:38:37 AM PST

  •  nyceve, thank you for your work (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Radiowalla, nyceve, Annalize5, Unduna

    With all the flame wars and silliness going on, I wonder if a purge is on the horizon.

    Be a Liberal. People are more likely to run to you if you stand still and not run from yourself.

    by Sunqueen212 on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:40:44 AM PST

  •  Perhaps you could post the emails (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, nyceve, JenThinks

    you get in a diary on the days when you don't feel like writing something yourself:

    I wish some of you received the emails that I find in my AOL account every day.  If you did, you'd stop this internecine bickering. You'd hold the feet of our servants, our public servants to the fire, until they screamed in as much pain as our fellow citizens.

    People sending the emails to nyceve should give explicit permission if possible to post the emails in her diaries.

  •  Agreed (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, aimeeinkc

    You are a valuable voice here.  However, be prepared - the Impeach/Not Impeach meme will be with us for the next two years.

    And, OT, but another valuable voice, ILiketodrum, hasn't been around for some time either.  Or maybe I have just missed him?  He did write a rather mournful GBCW diary a while back.

    "Man's life's a vapor Full of woe. He cuts a caper, Down he goes. Down de down de down he goes.

    by JFinNe on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:42:56 AM PST

    •  From what he's said previously (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cowgirl, JFinNe

      he's on the road a lot. Which was part of his problem - being alone among a swirl of faces.

      The responses he got were not only empathetic, but inspiring to all of us who have ever struggled with feeling lonely.

      I hope he finds time to return, too.

      Pelosi to the Ringwraith Rumsfield: I AM NO MAN!!!

      by Sharoney on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:48:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you. (6+ / 0-)

    I hope there are enough of us to make others think about agenda.  You summed it up when you said:

    This brings me to my next point, agendas. I happen to have an agenda, it's all about restoring fairness and a sense decency to our country.

    The idea that freedom gives license is wrong.  R.D. Laing said something to the effect that, the freer the society is in which one lives, the greater the responsibilities.  There is nothing more true.

  •  newbie here (13+ / 0-)

    Hi Eve,

    I'm one of those brand-spankin' newbies who lurked for awhile before joining.  I've always enjoyed your diaries.

    I have no idea what's going on either.  I hate to think that I'm inadvertently stepping on a Kossackian hornet's nest upon reading what others have been saying.

    I do hope you continue to write.  You, as well as everyone else, has something to say that makes one think.  That's a very rare phenomenon on many other sites.

    I'd donate something to the tip jar if you had one...::looks around::

    Certe, toto, sentio nos in kansate non iam adesse.

    by HawkWife on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:47:17 AM PST

    •  Welcome, Hawkwife. . . . (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GreyHawk, Unduna, Major Danby

      I never did a tip jar, if you don't see a tip jar, frequently there is what's called a first comment which is really the equivalent.

      Enjoy this wonderful and irrasible place. Sometimes, it gets a bit unruly, then we settle down for the important battles.

      •  I've read some of the mudslinging here (6+ / 0-)
        ...and to tell you the truth, I've never been one for it.  I think one can make his or her point eloquently without resorting to an attack.  Besides, isn't having different opinions and the right to voice them is what's considered truly democratic?

        Certe, toto, sentio nos in kansate non iam adesse.

        by HawkWife on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:10:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're right about being democratic, but (3+ / 0-)

          One thing a lifetime of political activism has taught me is that every kind of politics, because politics is about power, draws a wildly disproportionate number of control freaks.  There's no reason dailykos should be different, and it isn't.

          •  that's true (0+ / 0-)

            And I've noticed it not only here, but on other forums too.  Let and let live, I always say.

            Part of me thinks that it's probably in one's best interest to be a control freak in order to get one's message across.  On the other hand I believe there's a way in which to do such without resorting to name-bashing, flaming, etc.  I've seen/read such, so I know it's out there.

            I also think it's possible to get too emotionally involved in the subject.  That, of course, makes for remarks that could be construed as flaming/insulting/take-your-pick.  Trouble is, it's difficult to take back anything said or written.  Some may not care about that, but others do.

            Certe, toto, sentio nos in kansate non iam adesse.

            by HawkWife on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 03:21:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  eve, this site is much richer for your presence (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unterhausen, nyceve, JenThinks, LynneK

    so, thanks for your work. it is very valuable to me.
    as for the rest, i guess i'm oblivious, or it just seems like the same old stuff. it should never get personal, but...

    "step on the gas & wipe that tear away..." - the beatles

    by rasbobbo on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:49:33 AM PST

  •  Good heavens, nyceve, (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rasbobbo, nyceve, casperr, 4jkb4ia, JFinNe

    don't let the meta-blues get you  down!  Your diaries are a must-read for me and you add so much to the vitality of this site!

    For myself, I choose, for the most part, to stay away from the internal meta brawls.  Sometimes I find myself tempted to chime in and then I think better of it.  I just don't have the time or emotional energy to devote to cyberspace controversies... my own life has plenty of its own right now.

    Because we find ourselves afloat in an insane world, dkos has become a safe harbor where we can escape from Bushco's indignities.  So when things go awry here, we tend to take it personally.  I have to remind myself that what goes on here is NOT my real life.  It is a discussion board, a very vital and important board, but a discussion board nevertheless.

    Memo to James Carville: sit down and shut up!

    by Radiowalla on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:56:08 AM PST

  •  Oh, who cares? (9+ / 0-)

    People like to argue and throw food. Conflict doesn't bother me at all. It's the ugly attack dog style that needs a muzzle.

    newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

    by Jules Siegel on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:58:48 AM PST

  •  The Stoner Wars (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pollyusa, stodghie, BarbinMD, 4jkb4ia, DSPS owl

    are getting close to making me leave in disgust.

    I have almost nothing to add to them, and the truly ignorant and ridiculous ways I have been attacked for adding my $0.02 to them has made it a policy for me to not even open those diaries.

    The problem is that the "fringe agendas" are coming out of the woodwork, and people are yelling louder and louder to be heard. In many cases, this is working.

    There is one person who has boasted that s/he will make legalization of marijuana laws a mainstream topic, and will (in their words) "target" a meme that they attributed to me without even bothering to find out why I had taken the stance that I did (I have a very good reason for it that is totally unimpeachable). Their diaries have consistently made the RL, and stay there for a long period of time, so I must assume that, to a majority of this forum, legalizing marijuana is more important than most topics to be addressed by the 110th Congress.

    I am sorry that peeder may have resigned. The tech crew for this site have done a marvelous job. If you chase away the infrastructure maintenance crew, this whole house of cards is going to collapse.

    I have valuable tech skills that I have offered to apply on a volunteer basis, but, if I lose interest in this forum, I won't be too motivated to do so. It's not a "I'm going to take my toys and go home" thing. It's just the way it is. I do a lot of volunteer work, and I won't waste my time.

    Most of the really heavy-duty people on this site have intense "day jobs" (I know that I do). This is not their life. The people who have nothing but time for this blog may very well (paradoxically) have a lot less to contribute, yet bigger axes to grind and feel far more invested (so they will attack thos of us "less invested" than they).

    Remember that.

    In any case, I like your agenda, nyceve. It is an important one that affects each and every one of us deeply. I appreciate your contributions.

    <reaches over and bangs on "Recommend">

    "[T]hat I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake."

    by Heronymous Cowherd on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:01:06 AM PST

    •  what? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      StupidAsshole, cowgirl, Predictor

      you comment on a diary about getting along with a thinly veiled attack on other site users?

      The problem is that the "fringe agendas" are coming out of the woodwork, and people are yelling louder and louder to be heard. In many cases, this is working.

      There is one person who has boasted that s/he will make legalization of marijuana laws a mainstream topic, and will (in their words) "target" a meme that they attributed to me without even bothering to find out why I had taken the stance that I did (I have a very good reason for it that is totally unimpeachable). Their diaries have consistently made the RL, and stay there for a long period of time, so I must assume that, to a majority of this forum, legalizing marijuana is more important than most topics to be addressed by the 110th Congress.

      marajana legalization is a serious issue. Its about freedom and justice and it isn't going to go away just because you whine about it. You got an important issue than diary about it. if we like it which i think we probably will we'll show you the love.

      The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. -Bill Hicks

      by waitingforvizzini on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:14:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Me Rest Case. Bye Now. (n/t) (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badger, sheddhead, drchelo

        "[T]hat I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake."

        by Heronymous Cowherd on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:16:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, I'll Reply a Bit More, as... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Miss Blue, fiddler, blueness

        ...this will probably be my last comment on this blog for a while.

        A) I did not attack other users. If I do, it will not be "thinly veiled." I don't do "thinly veiled." YOU may choose to use this questionable technique, but I will not. I hope that was clear enough and unveiled enough for you.

        B) Have fun with your serious issue I was on your side, just not passionately so. Now, you can go find other people just like you for your echo chamber. I'm sure it will be very productive. I hope that was clear enough and unveiled enough for you.

        C) I'm not sticking around for love. You guys have already shown the "love," and the fox ain't worth the chase.

        Do you know what is going on in the other window of my computer? Of course not, because it obviously doesn't matter.

        I have PowerPoint open, and I'm working on a series of technical infrastructure presentations to give to an engineering group in Japan. I'll be there Monday night, and will spend the entire week coordinating a series of international engineering projects for the next quarter. One of the principal tools of these projects is an infrastructure that I designed. It integrates a number of technologies, including a large Java incident tracking system, running on Tomcat Server, a Wiki system, running on a LAMP system, a source code control system, a couple of Python and shell auto-build systems and a lot of elbow grease.

        I'm sure that, since I don't smoke pot, and I'm not spending several hours a day composing prose for this blog, you don't need someone like me around.

        This blog has interfered with my work. I am really pissed off right now, and I will be signing off for a while. The whole last few days have infuriated me and have made me completely disgusted with this forum.

        There has always been an undercurrent of conflict and immaturity here, but the good has usually far outweighed the bad. That appears to be no longer the case, and I am deeply sorry about that.

        This blog is now going to join a large number of communities that I once regularly visited and now hardly ever visit. I am saddened and angry about it, but I am not invested enough in this community to fight for it. I had begun to make overtures towards that, but nothing has yet materialized.

        I realize that, for some people, pot is more important than a lot of things. I deal with those people all the time.

        This isn't a GBCW. It's just a "I'll take a break from this for a while."

        I know, I know. This will be followed by a series of "Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out" comments, but I will be in the "I could care less" land of "Nowhere Near DKos" for the next period of time.

        See Ya.

        "[T]hat I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake."

        by Heronymous Cowherd on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:59:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

          ...

          Just wow.

          The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. -Bill Hicks

          by waitingforvizzini on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:33:23 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Don't leave. Just try to understand that... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          waitingforvizzini

          ...pot is an important and beneficial part of a lot of people's lives, and that for many people (for better or worse) it becomes virtually indispensible. It becomes a big part of who you are. When you are irrationally criminalized for something that is very important to you and pretty close to harmless, guess what's going to happen: you're going to be mad and you're going to be obsessed about the topic of legalization.

          •  Absolutely (0+ / 0-)

            What is one person's important issue is not always important to others.

            The most important issue in my life is that I'm a Recovering drug addict. That means a huge host of things, one of which is that I deal with people for whom use of any drug, including pot and alcohol, is a completely life-ruining experience.

            You have no idea the horror I see on a regular basis.

            I should be against legalization, but I'm not. I'm just not passionate about it, and I think that the insistence on it being a major plank on this site is going to do a heck of a lot more damage than good. It will help to marginalize the site and drive away centrists (like me). I guess that Peeder has been driven away as well, which should worry you guys a heck of a lot more. Do you have any idea what he did for this site?

            BTW: Vizzini, I have known more hellish diseases than you could possibly imagine. Have you hugged any AIDS sufferers today?

            I've moved DKos down to the bottom of my link pile, so I'll only be popping around from time to time.

            "[T]hat I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake."

            by Heronymous Cowherd on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 03:11:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wow you came back just to one-up the suffering of (0+ / 0-)

              my family members?

              BTW: Vizzini, I have known more hellish diseases than you could possibly imagine. Have you hugged any AIDS sufferers today?

              I truly pity you. What a very small person you have shown yourself to be.

              The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. -Bill Hicks

              by waitingforvizzini on Sat Dec 23, 2006 at 09:28:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I was just going to leave it at that but (0+ / 0-)

          ...look I'm no pot smoker either but I'd like my mom and sister who are afflicted with chronic pain to be able to have that as a treatment option. My mom has Fibromyalgia and my sister has Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. to me it is just an important issue as stem cell reasearch. You know what since it obviously doesnt matter what you are up to on your puter then why would you bother taking a paragraph to tell us. Unless you want to say why YOU are sooooo important. So take your ball and go to japan if you want but we didn't drive you to it. Your own ego and desperate insecurity did. Grow up will you?

          Oh and by the way it is "I couldn't care less" not "I could care less" That's a little pet peeve of mine.

          The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. -Bill Hicks

          by waitingforvizzini on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:10:06 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Get your point... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          redmcclain

          But also think it is monumentally stupid that doctors can't prescribe marijuana for sick people.  But can prescribe morphine, oxycontin, and so on.

          There's a constitutional side to that issue, too.  As the Supreme Court knocked down state's rights to allow it.  Which struck me as exquisitely deranged.

          •  Context and history (0+ / 0-)

            The prohibition on marijuana was in its first instance racism.  At the time of its criminaliztion by Harry Anslinger and the Bureau or Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs, marijuana use was not part of the mainstream dominant culture.  At that time the large majority of marijuana smokers were Mexican-Americans.  There's a reason why a plant entirely native to North America is known by its Spanish name when its use as an intoxicant is meant. It provided a convenient law to use to keep Mexican-Americans down.

        •  This system sounds very cool (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          waitingforvizzini, blueness

          Good luck with it.

          -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

          by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 06:07:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Bravo (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, casperr

    We need more than this call for civility though

    I think the new warnings mechanism is great, if it is used to warn people who act like jerks.  

    What are you reading? on Friday mornings
    stats_geeks_of_daily_kos

    by plf515 on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:04:51 AM PST

  •  A few more rules would help (7+ / 0-)

    like:

    Don't attack the South for sending Republicans to Washington.  (Most Southerners on here voted Democrat) And don't blame the Southerners for what happened 120 years ago. The same goes for blaming Christians, smokers and red necks. Don't make it hard for them to be Democrats.

    Don't keep repeating that other Democratic candidates aren't worthy because they voted to go to war, so your candidate is the only one that can win. The key is to stop the repeating and repeating. That is hurting the party.

    The whole country seems to be in a bad mood. The Repubicans are down because they lost and the Democrats are mad because of the mess the Republicans have left for them to clean up.

    There is a lot of meanspiritness in this country. It is refreshing to read the writings of and to meet nice people.

    Remember,

    Together we stand and divided we fall to those damned republicans.

    Life is what you focus on. Focus on what is happening to our Social Security, Medicare and public schools and get rid of those who are ruining them.

    by relentless on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:05:45 AM PST

    •  as long as we are reciting don'ts (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LynneK

      how about don't take criticism of republicans as criticism of yourself.  

      There currently is a majority among significant parts of the south that deseve all the censure we can heap on them.  We are not talking about all southerners.  Southern Democrats here are some of my heros.  Same thing for Christians, very few people here actually talk badly about all Christians, and those that do often get troll rated.  But there are a significant number of theocratic, dominionist Christians that we have to fight.  We can't ignore the role those people are playing in politics, that would be too dangerous.

  •  Unsure, uncertain, afraid (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DaveV, Mary Julia, eleanora

    This is brand new territory, folks: victory, success a majority.

    It's normal and natural for folks to be afraid, uncertain and unsure.

    I'm not the slightest bit put off by the acrimony. In fact, were folks all getting along, it would be more worrying.

    Peeder may be back. The elections were really less than one month ago, no matter what the calender says.

    Republicans are retreating, but they're far from beaten as far as the next election goes.

    Issues are at the center of many of the disagreements. Folks are going to fight with one another.

    Snarling dogs.

    Music to my ears.

  •  I have an AGENDA! (11+ / 0-)

    Well, Eve, glad you asked, because I have an AGENDA and a big one. I want to unite and rally the members of this website under 35. I want us to increase our involvement here, and carry that to the offline world. My agenda is to increase participation and turnout amongst Americans under 35, thereby ensuring a Democratic majority for the next several generations.

    Luckily, there are already many fine Kossacks chiming in, but we can always use more. See the link at the bottom of my comments for info.

    That aside, I'm way more concerned about fixing the many problems that plague our society and threaten to turn America into a third-world country. When our party has finally chosen its nominee, I will work very hard for that person, provided he or she runs on a platform that not only addresses our Under-35 issues, but those of all struggling Americans as well!

    •  hey kath25 (0+ / 0-)

      have you ever seen any of my diaries by chance? i'm curious, have you formed a caucus of under 35-ers?

      •  We're working on it! (5+ / 0-)

        Every Thursday night around 8 central, we'll have a diary for Kossacks Under Thirty Five. Anyone with an interest is welcome to chime in, but the goal is to provide a space for the under-35's to talk about their issues.

        •  I'm not under 35, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DSPS owl, kath25

          but I'm delighted to see you guys organizing.  Watch out for the age police around here.  Sure we gotta have some of those too.

          Dean, Feingold, Sanders, and Conyers are an all star cast.

          by dkmich on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:46:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  well since you are heading that group up (0+ / 0-)

          have you ever seen any of my diaries? have you seen what i'm on about? i've been accused of conspiracy theory stuff, but that's not what i'm after. i'm after a way to create real and fundamental change sometime before next summer. care to hear me out?

          •  Thursday (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Elise

            This Thursday, why don't you stop by the diary and chime in? It's a communal effort, so feel free to pitch to the community.

            •  well (0+ / 0-)

              poiticians need millions of dollars to be seen and heard and no matter who that is that achieves success in raising money, once installed into the halls of power, there are some things that are verbotten. in other words, unless something is done to break the status quo so that it can be reformed into something new, we're going to keep getting what we've been getting, which is a steady, even slide to corporate governance.

              i've been wroking on a project where we stage an act of civil disobedience in the capitol sometime next year. just 100 americans who document the act, and if it does not produce the desired effect (america's first national convention), then maybe a documentary will after the fact.

              anyway, if you have time and are so moved, please check the last handful of my diaries and please feel free to contact me if it sounds interesting. i will stop by next thursday. thanks for the reply.

    •  I was a poll worker... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      4jkb4ia, Major Danby, kath25

      ...this November 7th.  Predominantly Dem precinct FWIW.  I kept tabs on the age demographics of the voters (including the early voters marked off as already voted).  And what I noticed was that there were relatively few under-30s voting.  

      Maybe we need a system like Australia, where people get fined for not voting?  Dunno.  But your idea sounds like a good one.

      Me, I'm interested in:

      • Committee appointments
      • Alternative energy
      • Global warming
      • Environment generally
      • Interior west regional stuff
      • Procedural stuff on nominations
      • Miscellaneous history, esp. SW regional or Native American-related
      • A short series on how to plant fruit trees
      • Other quirky bits that catch my attention

      Since I've been Pombo-focused for the last year, I've got as much of a post-election hangover as the next user.  Need to reinvent myself as a diarist.  Trying to learn to do shorter, less heavily researched and linked pieces.

      And so on.  Can't get excited about impeachment, which if it happens, will unfold in its own time.  Ditto on the presidential election.  The winners of the last round haven't even been sworn in yet, for pete's sake!!!

      My next diary (maybe tomorrow?) is likely to be about blood diamonds and dirty gold.  Didn't get to see the Blood Diamonds movie - not playing hereabouts yet.  But worth a little shopping guide in the season when people might feel moved to buy these things as gifts.

      •  Warning! Warning! (0+ / 0-)

        The NYT reviewer said that "Blood Diamond" had the best intentions in the world but didn't know how to be anything else but a thriller with exotic suffering Africans in it.

        -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

        by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 06:09:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Eve, I look for your articles first thing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    every day.  What you have to say always interests me and I am usually in agreement with your conclusions.  Even if I were not, I would always show respect for your opinions in my comments, explaining to you why I disagree.  Unfortunately,  I see too many "flames" when people disagree.  It is the lack of civility in our culture that is to blame.  As you know, I am closer to your Mom's age than you and as children then, the first thing we ever learned was to be respectful of others.  Some-where along the way, in the 60s, I think, civility got stamped on and life has never been the same.
    I make mistakes in my conclusions sometimes and when it is brought to my attention, I apologize.  It doesn't cost me a thing and I am happy to learn when I am wrong, so I can correct my thinking.
    And calling people aholes, mf, and the rest of the nasties does nothing to improve the discourse.  We, here, for the most part, are lucid, intelligent adults.  We need to act that way to be taken seriously in the perilous times in which we live if we are to change the political landscape in this country for the better.

    The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all - JFK- 5/18/63-Vanderbilt Univ.

    by oibme on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:09:28 AM PST

  •  Cyclical (5+ / 0-)

    There's been a lot of heated policy arguments around lately.  These have coincided with a new cycle of meta disputes and made things seem worse than they are.  You've been around long enough to have seen these cycles and from what I've seen, this one hasn't been so bad.

    Peeder's GBCW arose from a flame war he was involved in.  He was giving as good as he got and Markos called him out and took the other side.  Guessing he didn't appreciate it much, though he never articulated a reason as far as I know, nor is it altogether clear to me that he resigned . . . only that he's no longer commenting.

    If we abandon our ideals in the face of adversity and aggression, then those ideals were never really in our possession. - Cpt. Ian Fishback

    by Rick Oliver on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:11:39 AM PST

  •  Blame is a disease started by judgement. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    4jkb4ia, station wagon, Annalize5

    Blame and judgement both come distressingly easily to us primates. They starts the moment someone says someone else is bad because they aren't x,y, or z. They're "evil", they're bad, those "them" over there. It feels fun when aimed at people we aren't working with.

    These lower-primate habits can prevent people who identify with different ideologies from working together on common issues. But the problem gets much worse when these divisive habits of blame and judgement are applied towards people who are within the same camp as well, because they aren't perceived as being enough of x,y,z.

    I much prefer that we stick to a framework of "This works, that doesn't work." Pragmatic, the opposite of dogmatic.

    And I assert that NO human beings ever do anything but what they feel must be the right thing. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for what we believe in. It means that we must ALWAYS remember that we're talking to human beings, and not cardboard cutouts of the ideologies we think they represent.

    "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

    by jbeach on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:11:47 AM PST

  •  Serious stuff is 'hard work' (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, 4jkb4ia, Elise
    There's no more important question facing the US over the next decade than putting in a system of healthcare that works for everybody - Eve's field of expertise.

    Trouble is, trying to get some hold on the problems and the pros and cons of possible solutions - not to mention the politics of getting the best solution enacted - is really hard work.

    It involves reading long PDFs, shlepping with Mr Google, burrowing in the bowels of THOMAS - and their feebler state equivalents, all the while trying to teach yourself what you should be looking for.

    And, after all that effort, you probably only end up with more questions than you started with plus a bunch of loose ends.

    On the other hand, a pie fight over impeachment takes zero research, zero expertise, and delivers immediate ya-yas for the folks (I nearly chose another word) who engage in them.

    Surveys show the combined brain-power and experience of Kossacks: pity the big threads don't demonstrate more of it in action.

  •  most of what i read (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    relentless, libbie, npbeachfun

    is on the right side of the screen anyway.

    It is possible that people are coming on here now deliberately to alter the tone and discourse of the community? This may happen.

    •  I have thought of that myself (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      World Patriot

      The righties would love to cause so much disruption that the clarity of problem solving is fogged up.

      There is a lot of witty people here and I love that too.  

      We all need to stand back and let the brilliant of each area shine. And let the commenters comment.

      Life is what you focus on. Focus on what is happening to our Social Security, Medicare and public schools and get rid of those who are ruining them.

      by relentless on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:25:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not so much the righties (0+ / 0-)

        I don't think the problem in that regard is so much the righties as it is traditional establishment types of all stripes that two years ago were sneering at blogs, but now are realizing there are things like money and power to be drawn from the blogosphere.  They still have little respect for the people and attitudes that drove the development of the political blogosphere in the first place, but now they see it as something valuable to be controlled in the same way they've controlled all other gateways to the system for generations.

  •  Timely Diary Eve (15+ / 0-)

    I agree, but I think one cannot absolve the inner circle and (former FPers) of some of the blame for the flame atmosphere.  

    When I first started posting, I found out some animals were more equal than others.  One or two FPers would flame a poster in an outrageous provovative, and personal manner--something that would have been troll-ratable from any other user. And one or two new users would troll-rate the comment based on the content, and then 78 others old-timers would uprate it based solely on the user name.

    I think if we want more civility, it has got to begin with those in power.

    One of the things that I have always admired about mcjoan and SusanG is that no matter how pissed off they are, I have never seen either gratuitously flame someone, nor write a comment which was primarily intended to wound. This is not true of all FPers, and to the extent that they behave badly, they lose the moral standing to intervene and demand civility.

    Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

    by RickBoston on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:18:12 AM PST

    •  While it used to be a problem that a... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      4jkb4ia, RickBoston

      ...double standard was in effect with regards to one high-profile FPer/ex-FPer (i.e. he would gratuitously flame and troll-rate his interlocutors and then his fans and his buddies--who also happened to be high-profile posters--would uprate him and attack anyone who criticized his behavior), I have to say that 1) we're all just anonymous handles here--if one anonymous handle insults another, who really cares? 2) said FPer/ex-FPer has returned, written a series of excellent diaries, and is no longer acting like a prick.

      •  Yeah, I have heard that... (5+ / 0-)

        but while there was one FPer who was notorious, he was far from alone.  

        The second circle of hell--the vast territory of users who by virtue of longevity and cliques were guaranteed a dozen uprates for even the most outrageous posts--was also too long looked upon with a blind eye the adminstration and other core users.

        Civility and high discourse is a hard sell when it is being demanded by those who regularly descend to abusive rhetoric and unproductive name-calling.

        Christopher Shays: Embarrassment to CT, and America!

        by RickBoston on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:17:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  nyceve (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    npbeachfun

    i just want to know if you are ever going to take focus off a symptom and place it on the problem.

    take care of the problem and the symptoms go away.

  •  My perspective (15+ / 0-)

    for what it is worth....

    Thank you for this thoughtful diary nyceve. I have been around here about the same time as you and was a lurker long before that. One thing that kept me from joining was the intense fighting I saw during the primaries between the Deaniacs and non-Deaniacs. Posters have been venting spleen at each other here for a long, long time, in cycles it seems. Now that there are so many more users it is even more amplified. Also, cliques have indeed evolved and there are, it appears, fairly constant turf wars between them.

    I can speak to the clique mentality a bit, because I joined one of them. We call our clique the kiddie pool, which is otherwise known as the Cheers and Jeers sub-community. It has been a safe haven from the vitriol many of us saw in what we call the "shark tank," the areas of Dkos where blood is spilled. It is also of course a place to share humor, pooties and puppies, as well as political opinion and a sense of community spirit.

    The members of the kiddie pool rarely strayed into the deep dark waters, but should someone have come into the pool to pee, the retribution could be swift and brutal via troll ratings and snarkisms. The defense mechanism was and is strong. So, I understand the dynamics of what is going on. It is factionalism and tribalism. This kind of splintering is pretty common when groups don’t have a common goal.

    That leads me to your point about agendas. When this site has an agreed upon agenda as we did during the run up to the last election, there is more unity of purpose and the kogs fit nicely into the larger wheel. Once that sense of purpose comes unhinged, so do a lot of the posters.

    I have been thinking about this quite a bit lately, because I too dislike all the animosity and feel like so much energy is being wasted. I think we need some kind of structure or organization, but in smaller groups. I like the idea someone suggested of developing regional groups and doing group diaries. I think this might help channel the "cult" mentality into something more productive.

    Now I know Kos doesn’t like the idea of categorization of the blog in general, not wanting splintering into "focus" groups on issues, but I do think some more formal self structuring into groups could help people get more productive and less destructive.

    If I know anything about this site, it is that we have to become the leaders we want to be, we can’t expect it to come from above. We just have to collectively decide we want to do something different and just do it. It’s all about that people power stuff.

    Sorry for the rambling nature of my comment. I did want to speak up though, because I too care very much for this blog community. My agenda here is to help try to figure out how to keep it being the amazing historic thing I believe it to be.  

    -76W-83S It's always because we love that we are rebellious; it takes a great deal of love to give a damn - Kenneth Patchen

    by cosmic debris on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:19:20 AM PST

    •  Thanks for this comment (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cosmic debris, LynneK

      I did a quick scan of the comments to see if anyone mentioned C&J... seems like this site could use a bit of the Cheers and Jeers mentality.

      That said, most people really don't have a clue as to what's going on in the "inner circles." Had I not read this diary, I'd have known nothing about peeder quitting, and had Kos not just commented, I would not have known anything about how he did it (see peeder's last comment). So I'm sorry about these bad feelings, but for most of us, it's insider politics, just like in D.C.

      Hofstadter's law: "It always takes longer than you think, even when you take account of Hofstadter's law."

      by redlami on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:42:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Peeder resigned? (8+ / 0-)

    First I've heard about that. If true, I'm saddened he won't be the front man at the tech helm. He is the most patient, understanding, generous tech support person (not to mention, software wizard) I've ever communicated with.

    We even threw some pies at each other one time in a non-tech thread and that was a blast too. I'm hoping he continues to regularly appear as commenter and diarist, if not the tech guy, on all the political stuff we discuss around here.

    As for your Meta points, I agree with you. Well said. But the site has grown enormously in a very short time, much like a teenager in that gangly, damn! another pimple, stage.

  •  yeah, well (15+ / 0-)

    What's going on with these self-appointed (or officially appointed, God knows, I certainly don't) Kossackian high priests casting judgment on all who don't  precisely live up to some unspecified and ethereal standard?  It's a great feeling not to be in the inner circle--not to know what the hell is happening. But would someone tell an idiot like me, what gives?

    Excellent question....

    I've read some of the sudden bombs thrown in long-time user diaries and have to shake my head.  And even though I'm not the biggest fan of some "fluffier" diaries, the tone and content and attitude of these critical posts leave me covered in ick.  I keep reading the critics' rationale -- "It's not personal, I'm critiquing content" -- and get stuck in Who Asked You Land.  

    I think if this official and semi official critiquing stopped, a lot of the resulting flame wars would stop, too.

    I don't know all the reasons peeder left, but I believe he had some sympathy for those who experienced these abrasive and sometimes pompous critiques.

    Another point, and perhaps I'm being catty (meow), but if you're going to go into a diary and lob a critique on content and style, then your own writing  should be above reproach.  I've not found that to be true of those throwing the above-referenced bombs.

    Blogatha! The political, the personal. Not necessarily in that order.

    by ksh01 on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:19:52 AM PST

    •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      clonecone

      I keep reading the critics' rationale -- "It's not personal, I'm critiquing content" -- and get stuck in Who Asked You Land.

      "You" post something on a public blog...then "you" asked. Everything can't be roses and candy all the time. Sometimes people post diaries that aren't good, or that make poor arguments, or that violate the rules. Every time someone puts themself out there by posting a diary or a comment that is an invitation for a response. Sometimes that response will be praise, sometimes it will be criticism. That's just life.

      As for "sudden bombs"...I don't see anything different here now that I haven't seen for the past few years that I've been here.

      •  you still don' think this is different? (9+ / 0-)

        As for "sudden bombs"...I don't see anything different here now that I haven't seen for the past few years that I've been here.

        With even more and more respected members of the community wieghing in and saying something is different. With meta diary after meta diary about 'whats's wrong.'

        But you don't see anything different, with un-fringe people GBCW and complaining and wondering, but you don't see anything different?

        It seems like you are in an increasingly blind and insulated minority.Everyone is writing and commenting on how things have changed...but you don't see it.

        Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that if you do see something wrong you might have to take some responsibility?

        You know someone else who is in denial? George Bush

        Hey, you know who else has moral clarity and disdains sophistication?  George W. Bush.
        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Sure glad thats not a personal insult.....anymore

        •  buhdy, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          npbeachfun, cowgirl

          With even more and more respected members of the community wieghing in and saying something is different. With meta diary after meta diary about 'whats's wrong.'

          But you don't see anything different, with un-fringe people GBCW and complaining and wondering, but you don't see anything different?

          This has been happening here as LONG as I've been here. I have seen much-loved and respected members of this community leave without noting why, GBCW diaries from people who are angry with things like the pie wars or the 2004 primary tone around here, and I have seen respected community members write diaries in response and people hash things out and either agree to disagree and move on, or continue to hate one another forever.

          This has ALWAYS been Daily Kos. So no, I don't see anything different here.

          As for "un-fringe" people writing GBCW diaries, if you missed the movement of both of the people you're referring to from a healthy participation in the site, to an unhealthy one...I don't know what to tell you. Although I have to say at least in Miss D's case I don't think you did miss it. She had been posting erratically for months...since summer. Both of these people you're referring to came to the conclusion that DKos wasn't the place for them. I have seen LOTS of respected members of the community come to that conclusion over the years I've been here. These may be the first in some time...but they aren't the first by any means. So no, this is nothing different.

          It seems like you are in an increasingly blind and insulated minority.Everyone is writing and commenting on how things have changed...but you don't see it.

          Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that if you do see something wrong you might have to take some responsibility?

          1st, welcome to the cycle that is Daily Kos.

          2nd, how am I responsible for Miss D's paranoia that people are out to get her? I tried to engage her repeatedly several times...her response to me was that I was out to get her. What is left but to ignore her at that point? And you know what...I didn't see every diary she wrote here in the past few months, but the vast majority I did see were diaries that attacked people here for ignoring her others which she felt had more substance. I'm responsible for that?

          And how am I responsible for peeder? It's MY fault that he doesn't like the rules or the structure of this community?

          I don't think so. I take responsibility for myself...for my comments and my diaries. I don't take responsibility for the problems that other people have.

      •  well, we can always go with that shallow (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Avila, nyceve, buhdydharma, blueness

        interpretation of my remarks, but we all know that manner, method, timing, and tone matter.  

        It's the tone and manner in particular that provokes the "who asked you" response, particularly when the critic doesn't meet the minimum ability/entitlement ratio.  

        If Meteor Blades comes into my diary and tells me my content and style are full of shit, I'd be taken back at the rudeness, but receptive to the criticism.  When some others do it, I would be merely taken aback. A right to sit in judgment and be taken seriously must be earned......

        Something to think about, in any event.

        Blogatha! The political, the personal. Not necessarily in that order.

        by ksh01 on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 02:33:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  As an english teacher I'm pretty positive (0+ / 0-)

          I do know that those things matter.

          But you know what, I don't judge criticism by the name it comes from...when people criticize me I consider whether their criticisms are valid and I proceed from there. Again, if a person puts themselves out "there" then they should expect that criticism may very well follow...I don't see why you feel someone needs to be appointed to give criticism. That seems silly to me.

          Finally,

          content and style are full of shit

          The comment and critic that I KNOW you are referring to NEVER said anything like that. Go back and re-read her comment again if you need to...but "full of shit" didn't enter into that discussion at any point.

    •  OMG, I read "fluffier"... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ksh01, Eddie Haskell, npbeachfun, cowgirl

      ... as "fluffer" then imagined some diaries that (I felt) fit the bill.

      That is funny, and telling at the same time. Maybe it describes the type of rant I feel is tiresome and overdone and recommended sometimes...

      (Probably putting myself out there for a flame or two... oh well :-)

    •  bingo & bravo n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila
  •  I think having won the Congress, (8+ / 0-)

    somewhere deep in the collective subconscious is the problem of not knowing quite what to do with all the fight we have around here.

    It's as though the energy needs to be channeled somewhere, and at the moment it's taking the easy route -- internecine warfare because it seems the external war is somehow "over".

    What I would say to people who want to battle is this:  Don't battle Koslings.  Battle the enemy.  They are still out there, trying to do bad shit.  They will always be out there trying to do bad shit, and trying to steal the Congress back from us.  Never let them have a MINUTE to advance their goals while our infighting backs are turned.

    That said, I think those of us who are concerned about civility and productivity of discourse on dKos need to say, more firmly and at the time, that dissing and screaming and namecalling isn't how we do things around here.

    We DO have a culture of respectful adversarialism around here, a culture that many people have spent long years building.  This is worth defending from those who don't get it and want to act out, here, like they may have acted out on some lesser blog.  

    Some of these people are defintely agents provocateurs, here only to spoil the excellent discourse we normally enjoy at dKos.  I exhort all Koslings who enjoy an impassioned but adult conversation, and who may be normally too peaceful to say anything, to step up and stay something when impassioned adult conversation takes a wrong turn.  On the spot, at the time, in the thread concerned.  Stand up and smack these people down!

    Tell them in no uncertain terms that this is not how we do things.  Like all playground bullies, normally they run off crying.  And if they come back at you with a jab, so what?  It's some little prick on the internet in his mother's basement!  Using your superior intellect and grasp of the English language, demand that he behave!  And give all us lovers of impassioned civility something to jump up and cheer about!

    So for me the bottom line is, while it's good to have meta diaries about this, and to have diaries reminding people about the participation guidelines in the FAQ, it's also important to meet this activity right where it stands.  "Lecturing the whole school" about civility just does not have the same effect as confronting individual acts of unpleasantness right when they occur.

    Some Koslings ARE better than others, and we're in the business of making sure the good guys win.  So let's individually apply that on a daily basis to our own community.

    •  I feel there is some hidden "Angst" on this site (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DSPS owl, highlyunlikely

      Now that the Democrats have won the House and the possibility is in front of our eyes that nothing much changes and nobody knows what to do about it.

      I think people are disoriented and angry about it. The waiting for the ISG and anticipating that nothing will come out of it that gives you hope and faitn, the impeachment debates, the Presidential candidates's Race/Gender squabbles are all rather depressing. Different people are having different priorities and are not sure about if their's are the right ones right now.

      Also, the place here is so huge it becomes a burden to try to understand what's going on.

      But I think the tense tone crossing over to the readers (including myself) from many are based on being a "scared and worride". If nothing gets better and nothing gets solved, who do we blame it on this time? Us?

      Power ought to serve as a check to power - Montesquieu, 1748

      by mimi on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:27:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Permission to act badly (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Loquatrix, oibme, fiddler, ticket punch

    Some folks do respond to the freedom of anonymity, the generally tolerant attitudes, and the justifiable rage & resentment against the Bushies, by deciding that normal decent behavior is not required.

    Personally, I could do without probably 95% of the obscene language. I'll claim to be no prude, I just don't favor it as a steady diet.

    A lot of people seem to project their personal emotional issues onto the world of politics. Quite understandable, probably we all do that to a degree. For some, acting out their inner struggles outweighs doing those things that would most help convince those who do not already agree with us.

    I guess people here are in all stages of emotional development. Many of the immature (not necessarily related to age) will eventually work their way through it and become more able to assume responsibility for a positive agenda.

  •  my 2 cents- the common enemy has been vanquished (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pHunbalanced, Loquatrix, Catte Nappe

    and our side won.  People on here are now looking inward for confrontation to blow off steam. It's no fun attacking Santorum et al anymore. All that positive energy we generated in toppling the evil empire now is pent up and needs release, so we're punching each other out until it can be used constructively on some new outside force. It takes great thinkers and activists a while to shift back into neutral.

    Deval, we are collectively holding our breath until the Healey, Romney stench dissipates.

    by tnichlsn on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:23:59 AM PST

    •  There must be an enemy? (0+ / 0-)

      not sure I agree.

      •  ...enemy, cause. etc (0+ / 0-)

        not necessarily a person but a cause to rally around or protest against. however most important causes do come with bodies that need to be stepped over or kicked aside to achieve their ends.
          Global warming - GWB/Inhofe, reproductive rights - GWB/Dobson, gay rights - GWB/Falwell, Iraq debacle - GWB/Lieberman, Economic fairness - GWB/GOP congress, trashed Bill of Rights - GWB/Gonzales, etc. etc. ...

        Deval, we are collectively holding our breath until the Healey, Romney stench dissipates.

        by tnichlsn on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:28:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  thanks nyceve (8+ / 0-)

    (and mcjoan, belatedly, if you're reading).

    I'm just plain too tired to say much beyond that, except that the healthcare issues you write about show that you have perspective.


    Ashes and diamonds / Foe and friend / We were all equal in the end...

    by Page van der Linden on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:26:30 AM PST

  •  change of energy on Dkos (7+ / 0-)

    INteresting diary.  I didn't know anything about the fighting, but I have noticed a subtle change of energy on Dkos; and a corresponding lack of my own interest in coming here to dkos.  I'm not aware of the reasons, but something has changed ... and not for the better.

  •  This diary (4+ / 0-)

    and mcjoan's diary last night have both sounded a necessary call to civility and reasonableness that makes for intelligent discussion of some very difficult issues. I respect your additional point about withholding negative personal attacks when you have nothing else to say. Unlike you, nyceve, I didn't even read the diaries on the FP nominations so fortunately I missed those attacks and am sorry that you didn't, especially if some were directed at you. I can only think of one new FPer whose style and attitude I don't particularly like and rather than attacking that person, I simply don't read that person's work. Maybe when the 110th Congress begins its work, a higher level of discourse will prevail.  

  •  cyclical (4+ / 0-)

    When I first signed up, almost htree years ago, there was a pitched battel regarding primaries and the meanness was pretty intense, as it had been for months while I lurked.

    Things get meaner and then nicer and then meaner.

    Overall, I don't see an extreme long term trend toward meanness. It's always ready to come forth again. Diaries like this and other recent diaries cllaing for civility help to tamp the meanness down, but it will take a while.

    And then it will return.

    •  It's like a dorm (11+ / 0-)

      Everyone periodically gets on each other's nerves, especially at the end of the semester.

      Most go on vacation, some hang out and work at the university over the break (or are stuck in a lab working on their PhD project).

      Everyone comes back and is more or less happy to see one another.

      Or something cheesy like that.


      Ashes and diamonds / Foe and friend / We were all equal in the end...

      by Page van der Linden on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:33:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But the whole dorm turns over in 4-5 yr time, (0+ / 0-)

        which limits the influence any one resident can exert. "Residence" here is completely open-ended.

        Also explains why few college coaches successfully cross over to pro football and stay there. Whole different game.

      •  I see the cycles on a shorter term (0+ / 0-)

        than "semester" (no pun intended) and tend to view us more as a very large and very dysfunctional family that tries valiantly to sit down to Thanksgiving dinner together every day of the year!

        There are obviously gonna be ructions.  A lot of them.  But overall we are glad to belong, and while some days we need to do something different and get away from everybody, most of the time we'd rather be here than not.  And regardless of whether we always like each other, we are bound together by some common thing, some single strand of molecules that threads through all of us -- that we would rather Democrats be in charge than Republicans.

        That core thing feels more like a DNA thing than a collegiate thing; there's no choice in the matter but to have this thing in common with these people that one may hate from time to time.  And just like being "blood family," it can sometimes indicate a very tight and loving bond, and it can sometimes indicate a very loose and acrimonious bond.  I definitely feel like some kind of family with people here, on some level.  (I'm just glad my real-life family is a lot more peaceable than this one!)

    •  Good analysis, but it seems more linear to me. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Annalize5

      See comment below. Civility ebbs and flows, but the long-term trend seems to point downward. The questions are: Is this is a bad thing, and if so, what to do about it.

  •  Recap (15+ / 0-)

    I've had limited internet time since the election due to RL issues, and trying to catch up has been a bit disconcerting. Lots of the stuff I found seems to be pretty standard, the post-election letdown piefighting blues. We're happy about the victory, but now what?

    I wish one of the new Front-Pagers or alumni would post a weekly short meta diary recapping site news:

    "This Week in Kos: We focus on Obama, stress about impeachment, warning system ho!, a slight flurry of crabbiness, and peeder takes a break. More after the jump...."

    Just a basic overview of who/what went on, told with a sense of humor and an eye to building community.  :)

    Goodbye Conrad Burns. Hello Senator-elect Jon Tester!

    by eleanora on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:34:05 AM PST

  •  Comment Signature (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Radiowalla, Matt Z

    No time is waisted when it makes two people friends.

    by Luetta on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:35:05 AM PST

  •  It's simply Gresham's Law in action, as applied (5+ / 0-)

    to the marketplace of ideas.

    How does a economic law, that bad money drives out good, apply here?

    Where money is the medium of exchange, the introduction of a currency with less backing will prompt holders of the "harder" currency to hoard it--to remove it from the market and take it elsewhere.

    dkos is a marketplace where the "currency" is discourse. I have observed that any new Internet discussion opens at a high level of discourse--but over time, as word gets out, the forum attracts bullies and thugs as well as worthies. Their contributions I consider "bad" currency.

    The worthies will redouble their efforts, at least for a while, but at some juncture, a tipping point occurs, where the bullies get the upper hand. And at that point, worthies start to withdraw their "currency" from their market.

    Once underway, the process if left unimpeded, is pretty well irreversible. I submit that's what happening here.

    Now here's the good news: The process can be reversed. But it will take direct intervention.

    Until the 1960s, we did have "bad" and "good" currency in circulation in this country: greenbacks and silver certificates. So why didn't the bad drive out the good? Because Congress demonetized them. Until 1968 you can exchange them for greenbacks one for one, but there ended the value of the silver certificate as legal tender.

    Can the effects of Gresham's Law be reversed here at dkos? Yes, but only with significant intervention to curb the effect of the bullies and thugs, and to restore the primacy of "good" currency in this market.

  •  well (20+ / 0-)

    I pretty much haven't been participating since September when I got a job on a campaign. Didn't have time to spend here, and then since then I haven't had the interest, and then got another job and so even LESS so now. So I've missed most if not all of this drama.

    So I have gotten a lot of distance since my time last summer of deep involvement here, a period where I knew of most of the drama that went on here every day, when I couldn't pull myself away, when I was starting to write my own diaries quite a bit, spending lots of time on them, started my own blog too.

    But I have a new perspective now. And I gotta tell ya. It. just. isn't. that. big. a. deal.  And much of what goes on here has WAY less impact out there in the world than many people here think it does. I'm finding it less and less relevant, honestly. I still check in here for tidbits, and I look for familiar "faces" for old times sake, and for shits and giggles, but mostly/overall I don't see the relevance to my life anymore.

    Having said that, nyceve, that I think of your writing a lot, and it IS relevant to my life, and I think that it is some of the most valuable writing there is here, or on any of the community blogs. The stories you are telling, the information you are finding is vital and valuable and can be a catalyst for change, and honestly I think you should take it to the next level. I haven't been reading you regularly lately so I don't know what's been going on with you, but as I have said many times before:

    WRITE A DAMN BOOK, WILLYA??

    I have been talking to a very political friend of mine lately about healthcare and I'm surprised how much he doesn't know about how bad it is.  People need to know. We need An Inconvenient Truth about Healthcare. We need an Al Gore for Healthcare. You are a piece of that potential.

  •  Reading the comments in this diary... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, poemless, aimeeinkc, drchelo

    reveal to me that this web-site is visited by a WIDE range of folks who loosely charcacterize themselves as "left of center". That is a big-tent. It has proven to be extremely difficult to keep this group together over the years; look at the infighting and bickering and backstabbing that caused the collapse of the New Left in the 70s.

    Although discomforting to long-time Kossacks, what is happening is predictable when trying to build coalitions. You end up with a larger group of people and within that group there are greater differences. Still, hostility seems senseless even if you think I am a jerk. Consider ignoring those who scream, they will usually calm down.

    "War is the health of the state." Rudolf Bourne "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."Samuel Johnson

    by american pastoral on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:45:27 AM PST

  •  [Sigh] Do I have to explain EVERYTHING? (52+ / 0-)
    1. The Iraq war is frazzling everyone's nerves (not just Kossacks but the country at large)
    1. Bush is in power for two more years and we know he'll continue his reign of destruction.  That wigs us out.
    1. The holiday Bill O'Reilly season can be very stressful in itself, and cause people to pop off when they otherwise might not.
    1. We're in limbo now.  The election is over but the Democrats aren't officially in power yet.  We're antsy.  We're nervous and tense.  We're waiting to see if our party will rise to the occasion.  And, instead of maybe doing other things with our lives between Nov. 7 and January 2, we're here spinning and spinning and spinning in circles.  That creates tension in itself.  For gods, sake, we couldn't hold off talking about the '08 elections until, say, 2007?  What good is it doing us now?  None---it's simply making us bitter.
    1. A larger community means more diversity of opinion---and more opportunities for conflict to erupt.  Not everyone is schooled in diplomacy or civility (cougharmandocough), and sometimes differentiating between a genuine attack and someone just having a bad day or a type-A personality is dificult.
    1. If all else fails, come on down to C&J.  It gets the least respect of any feature of DailyKos, but it sure is an oasis for a lot of people.  I am proud beyond proud of the civility in there.
    1. Remember the old adage: Democracy is messy.  There's nothing in the bylaws that says DailyKos won't be, either.  All you can do is set an example for others: be civil, factual, empathetic and, if possible, a little witty.

    Five dollars, please.

    -

    "Judge me on the content of my character, not the underwear on my head."

    by Bill in Portland Maine on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 09:51:40 AM PST

  •  Nice one, Nyceve (16+ / 0-)

    I am not even going to pretend that I know what is going on nor that I am able to analyse precisely where the changes in DKos have occurred. It is brave of you to try.

    I do know that I was angry this week when I saw a diary purporting to speak for the rest of the world outside America in saying how we perceive your country and proclaiming the actions that it wanted taken in your domestic policies. I wanted so much to go on it and say: look, you represent a view of the far left that is marginalised in your own countries, let alone in the world for whom you speak. It does not represent my Europe or my world. If there Kossacks to whom your message speaks, that is fine but don't let anyone be under an illusion that it represents anything more than the opinion of the person writing it and a few friends.

    Yet what was the point? It would only add to the discord. It was only more words added to the immense auditorium filled with the emptiness of barren words that were being shouted. Normal exchange of considered opinion seemed pointless.

    Was it? I don't know but the feeling was there and the feeling led to non-participation - as so much on here is now leading to non-participation.

    So I remained silent, as I have been largely silent for a long time now.

    As the front-pagers try and engage the rest of us Kossacks in the enormous challenges ahead that comes from an immense and stunning victory, we seem to be engaged in an eternal bickering on every issue. All I hear is what Pelosi is supposed to have done wrong and rhetoric that, for example, will not let us try and build on the inadequacies of what Baker and the ISG have presented or that does not let us engage in the compromises of time, energy and political practicality that will be involved in the vast numbers of issues that the new Democratic Congress will be asked to tackle in the next two years.

    Or we seem stuck in a time frame that makes endless condemnation of Bush our predominant and almost obsessive pre-occupation.

    What has happened in the last few weeks should be the source of great inspiration for, and the opportunity to undertake, real creativity on here and encouragement for those newly elected to Congress. Instead, too much seems to support those critics of the progressive left that say it is only capable of opposition.

    So some of us stay quiet in a corner silenced by the immensity of the  noise around us and hope that it is a passing phase.

    I congratulate you, Nyceve, and McJoan for saying what needs to be said.

  •  What's my agenda? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Annalize5, civil society, buhdydharma

    To sustain at least a few elements of traditional genuine left-wing thought in a time when everthing in society, both parties, the media, the economy are running hell-bent for leather to the right and the hard right.  that will make many of my ideas terribly unpopular here, as eeeeeevil "purism" rather than "pragmatic" Reaganism in Democratic clothing.  So be it.  If that causes conflict, I can't help it, someone has to speak up for enduring progressive principles in an era of increasingly universal right-wing hegemony.

  •  I think it might help you a bit (0+ / 0-)

    if you understand this:

    This is Kos' business.

    This is our playground.

    IF, and to the extent that, his business interests are the same as ours as a community, that's great.

    If they're not, guess what wins?

    To Markos, people here are fungible. Nobody is indispensable. If any of us went away tomorrow, someone would replace us.

    He does what feels good to him, what works easiest for him, what gives him the greatest return on his investment.

    As for the rest of the FPers, well, they'd better go along with Markos' goals, as stated above, or they're out. And replaced. So easily.

    I nominated you for FP and I think you've earned it. Not to say the others haven't. I wish you had made it.

    DK is changing, and not wholly for the better. The politics are ugly and petty. We've always had flamewars and trolls, but that doesn't seem to be the problem lately. I think the rot has started at the top.  

    •  Wow. (5+ / 0-)

      Incredible.  Disagree with you 100%.  Rot starts at the top?  Omg.

      Your agenda has been very clear, for a very long time Kimberly.  The fact you haven't been banned kind of shoots your whole argument down the toilet.

      "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2900+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

      by Miss Blue on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:25:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  My agenda? (0+ / 0-)

        Pray elucidate us.

        This ought to be amusing.

      •  To be fair (11+ / 0-)

        while I wouldn't put it the same way, I don't entirely disagree with Kimberley. I don't think Markos is entirely unconcerned with posters here, and I don't think he's here primarily for a "return on his investment", say -- but I do think that some of his decisions and some of the decisions and tones of the front pagers have tended to build an attitude of -- we'll call it dismissiveness -- toward views that are unpopular here. Now, I think some of that has honestly been beyond kos's control, too -- there has been a tendancy over the last few years toward popularity rather than thoughtfulness (these are sometimes mutually exclusive, frankly). A lot of that has to do simply with having so many people here, and so many caught up in their personas. On the other hand, I think some of it is directly related to some of the policies here, and also kos's lack of concern when it comes to people throwing up their hands and walking away over the sometimes mob-like and weird interpersonal behavior.

        I don't want to get too specific here, but I think attitudes and tones -- both of which have been largely rejected outright as important by people "on the top" in the past -- absolutely do filter down through the community.

        •  After awhile... (5+ / 0-)

          ...if I may interject, the "prominent" bloggers have seemed to have chilled out somewhat.

          I used to get into it frequently with one of the FPers from the first batch or 2 but that has stopped for some reason.

          Why?

          All I can say is that I poignantly noticed when Kos said on more than one occasion that he was looking for NON-flamethrowers for FPers.

          Did my FPer have a talking to or did he just give up on censoring me?  I'll never know.  Some of his pals, who I have since buried the hatchet with, have left me to my rants as well without overt harassment (except when I went after Obama on faith-based rant...).

          And that last point ties in nicely to this whole diary:  it's the politics stupid!

          People are emotional about their politics.  It's the nature of it, especially when their leader is to be chosen.

          nyceve must know this but she didn't say it in the diary... that's all that's going on.  

          not to get to much more epic in this comment but let's all humor nyceve and try a little harder eh?

          i did and the experience is so much better not having a dozen people after my ass at any given moment.

    •  Well that's a bold statement, Kimberly . . . (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kimberly Stone, CTLiberal

      Don't really know what else to say.

      So for once in my life I'll do the smart thing and say . . .

      Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Chanukah!

    •  I wish people would be more specific about... (5+ / 0-)

      ...their allegations in this thread. Now (when we're about as far from an election as possible) is a good time for us to get all our resentments and criticisms in the open and flame each other until we're tired of it.

      So what are your specific criticisms about Kos's leadership of this site? Mine are 1) that he sometimes puts his foot in it, pissing off large constituencies (feminists, for example) when he doesn't need to; 2) that he sometimes tries to control discourse on this site in a way that looks like it's coming down from the Democratic Party powers that be (my biggest complaint was the systematic way the front page derided and ignored evidence of election irregularities--even to the extent of maintaining a long silence even when a mainstream Democrat--RFK Jr.--posted a seminal article on this in a mainstream publication--Rolling Stone); 3) that he (or maybe other front pagers) sometimes pulls one's TU status or even bans one from the site because he was temporarily pissed at something one said (community moderation works fine: let it do its job); 4) that he can sometimes be politically oblivious--if you run ads for Chevron and Glenn Beck, do you expect people not to be pissed?

      That said, he has created a truly unique and important site that gives any Democrat who wants to make their opinions heard the opportunity to post a diary that is seen by tens if not hundreds of thousands of people; he has also created a hugely important farming system for bloggers (look how many Kos alumns have gone on to create their own very important blogs)--even though by doing so he's arguably setting up competitors to his own business.  If he acts like a prick once in a while--so what? If I was in his position, I can guarantee that I would act like a prick sometimes too. Ultimately--and I like to snipe at him as much as the next person--the guy deserves seriously huge props for what he's created here.

      •  Yes. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stiela, StupidAsshole, Annalize5
        1. that he sometimes puts his foot in it, pissing off large constituencies (feminists, for example) when he doesn't need to;

        Agreed.

        1. that he sometimes tries to control discourse on this site

        Yes. He's afraid of looking 'kooky' which, in turn, limits his political viability

        1. that he (or maybe other front pagers) sometimes pulls one's TU status or even bans one from the site because he was temporarily pissed at something one said (community moderation works fine: let it do its job);

        HELL YES.

        1. that he can sometimes be politically oblivious--if you run ads for Chevron and Glenn Beck, do you expect people not to be pissed?

        Agreed. This goes to the pocketbook perspective I mentioned.

        A current Financial Times advertisement has the head of The Carlyle Group profiled. Oh, irony.

        That said, he has created a truly unique and important site that gives any Democrat who wants to make their opinions heard the opportunity to post a diary that is seen by tens if not hundreds of thousands of people;

        Agreed.

        Ultimately--and I like to snipe at him as much as the next person--the guy deserves seriously huge props for what he's created here.

        I agree.

        That doesn't mean it's perfect, or he's perfect.

        Saying so, evidently, is unpopular. I have, you see, an 'agenda'.

        •  I don't think he's particularly business-driven.. (0+ / 0-)

          ...though. If you look at the front page, do you see how many advertising avails are unsold? I'm not sure he's even hired an advertising sales manager--because if he had done so, I doubt he'd have so many open avails. If he has ulterior motives in his management of this site, I would imagine those motives have to do with his own future as a Democratic party bigwig, not with a desire to get rich.

        •  I actually think (5+ / 0-)

          and it's probably one of the only disagreements I have with this list, that the community moderation has largely been a failure. And not just the troll ratings, either, but even the recommends. I think it tends to lead to a higher degree of the cliquishness, and to far too many posts displaying snippy but popular ideas, rather than thought-out longer ones -- the stuff that tends to collect the most "recommends" is only occasionally actually particularly thoughtful.

          When I frequent other blogs that don't have such a system -- or that have a system that's weirder and therefore less "thumbs up or down" -- I am always struck by the way people will actually respond and add things, rather than simply clicking the little "recommend" button.

          I think we need people to post less for approval than they currently do, honestly.

          Now, the problem is, of course, that any system has unappealing side effects. And there has to be some system for developing "trusted users", unless we were to go to a formal moderation system with official mods, which would start its own shitstorm. So I don't necessarily have any better ideas, but I think some real thought on how to improve the current system is probably in order, and I think a lot of what I seriously think of as "the popularity problem" has to do with the ratings, IMO.

          •  I think you're right that there are major... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Spit

            ...problems with community moderation. I just think the alternative would likely be worse.

          •  Sometimes (0+ / 0-)

            it is better to click that button and move on if all you are going to say is "Awesome comment". On another blog I wish I had that button for everything Charlie Hall has posted. Also clicking the button saves time over typing.

            -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

            by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 06:23:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Re:sig (0+ / 0-)

              Charlie Hall is an epidemiologist who is an outstanding advertisement for a Harvard education. He lives in Riverdale.

              -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

              by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 06:24:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I use that way some, too (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              4jkb4ia

              and that's basically what it's for -- to say "this is a great comment", even when you don't have anything to add.

              Problem is, it also winds up getting used for all kinds of other stuff -- agreement, friendliness, a way to say hello -- and so what you wind up with is a visible marker, essentially, of how "popular" a comment is. Comments that get a couple of recs tend to then collect more, because of the way human psychology works -- we're more likely to think a comment is good if others thought it was good. And in an argument, little "sides" quickly develop -- rec's become almost a "yeah, what he said" whether it was any good or not, a way of having somebody's back, basically.

              When I recommend things in arguments, I have actually started recommending everything in the thread that isn't insulting, just to make sure nobody thinks I'm necessarily taking sides -- because taking sides isn't the point of my rec. I frequently rec posts I disagree with, if I think they've made a good point.

              Add to that that some of the more popular personalities here can get recs for nothing -- which essentially transmits the info to anybody new about who the "untouchables" are -- and I think you've got a problematic system, overall.

              Maybe if the recs -- the names and numbers both -- were invisible, literally only used to get TU, it would avoid some of these problems. I'd have to think about it.

              •  Agree with recs building on themselves (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Spit

                I often am predisposed to a comment when it has more than 20.
                If recs were invisible people would not judge themselves by the number which they get, which might be helpful. They would also not judge themselves by gettin g a rec from someone important. I remember my two 4s from Armando to this day and which diaries they were in.

                -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

                by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 07:05:05 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The only problem I see with it (0+ / 0-)

                  at just a glance would be that it would be much harder to know whether anybody is actually reading the comment. I know that when I do post things that don't get any recs, I always wonder why, just a little bit -- in that unavoidable way, I start thinking, did I say something wrong, or did nobody even read it? Why didn't anybody like my little comment? It's so lonely and sad... ;)

                  That can be a bit maddening, I suppose. But not necessarily that big a deal, and maybe it would actually be less frustrating if there weren't visible ratings to worry over. It doesn't usually bother me that much on blogs that don't have ratings.

  •  NYCEVE - why I come back to dKos! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kimberly Stone, nyceve, aimeeinkc, drchelo

    I think in  a "community" like this, it's natural for there to be a conflict between the agressive and righteous and those who are trying to facilitate a more polite dialogue. Often it's a matter of maturity, of having been 'out in the world' for a while and understanding that shouting and meanness get you to a certain point but not beyond.

    You are clearly providing a service that goes beyond the superficial and provides more of a position/white paper education. It is INVALUABLE service, eve, and I truly appreciate it.

    You may notice, over time, that groups either disperse as a result of 'bad apples' or they leave the bad apples to run the group into the ground. It's a dynamic that unfolds over time.

    I think dKos is strong enough to withstand the growing pains. Despite the seemingly constant flaming, I return continuously for the diaries of nyceve, PlutoniumPage, wmtriallawyer and others of your ilk.

    I sincerely hope you stay around long enough to provide the intellectual and ethical model for how a community like this is, when it is truly at its best.

  •  democracy (3+ / 0-)

    Democracy isn't pretty, isn't always civil, doesn't get unanimity, gives people headaches, and causes discord.  And that's when it's working properly.  Enough with the calm down bit, we're Democrats, we fight because we care and because the only way to find the best path is to listen to the naysayers.  To do otherwise is Bushian.

    So, let's celebrate our disagreements--let's try to keep them impersonal--and let's not revel in our election victory.  Considering the news, the Dems didn't do as well as might have been hoped.  The best I can say is that we didn't fuck it up.  We're not king makers, we shouldn't be.  We're the common man airing his opinions, sometimes naively, sometimes foolishly, hopefully earnestly.  Enjoy it.

    •  Yes! I agree ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Land of Enchantment, Got a Grip

      but I think that some of what nyceve discusses here is a result of the fact that of course DailyKos itself is not a democracy.

      For example, from the FAQ

      But, what about Freedom of Speech?

      Doesn't the First Amendment give me the right to talk about whatever I want here?

      No. Daily Kos is owned by kos. The servers are his. He pays the bandwidth charges. He makes the rules; we are here as his guests. If he decides tomorrow that anyone not posting in iambic pentameter will be banned, your options are either to brush up on your poetry skills or find/start another forum.

      Controversial 9/11 Diaries

      DailyKos accepts that the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by agents of Al-Qaeda. It is forbidden to write diaries that:

        1. refer to claims that American, British, Israeli, or any government assisted in the attacks
        2. refer to claims that the airplanes that crashed into the WTC and Pentagon were not the cause of the damage to those buildings or their subsequent collapse

      Authoring or recommending these diaries may result in banning from Daily Kos.

  •  Hope you won't get too discouraged (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, 3goldens, vivian darkbloom

    nyceve, hell, i just got here not that long ago. I've appreciated your diaries immensely. I tend to go for the first hand campaign account and political statistics diaries and avoid the supermarket tabloid angst filled/screaming fire types.
    After spending about a year on a mixed site that seemed 60% neocon/gop/freeper, where I was the loyal opposition, this site seems rather tame by comparison, and far more worth my time and energy.
    One of the reasons I changed my Sig line was because I noticed alot of hostility recently.
    Hope you'll hang-in here.

    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama

    by Predictor on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:13:13 AM PST

  •  I have a couple of people who give (14+ / 0-)

    me magazines they've finished reading.  December's Oprah Magazine has a calendar containing quotes on manners.  Being the kind of person who needs to remind myself very often about simple lessons in civility, I was happy to see it, and I'm going to share a few:

    "It is the manners and spirit of a people which preserves a republic...."  Thomas Jefferson

    "But I suppose experience of life will in time teach you that tact is a very essential ingredient in all things."  Jennie Jerome Churchill

    "It is tact that is golden, not silence."  Samuel Butler

    "Every action done in company ought to be with some sign of respect to those that are present."  George Washington

    There is always a best way of doing everything....Manners are the happy way of doing things; each, once a stroke of genius or of love, now repeated and hardened into usage."  Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."  Eric Hoffer

    "No one can fail to reap the advange of a proper, courteous, and likable approach, or fail to be handicapped by an improper, offensive, and resented one."  Emily Post

    "The great secret...is not having bad manners or good manners...but having the same manner for all human souls:  in short, behaving as if you were in Heaven, where there are not third-class carriages, and one soul is as good as another."  George Bernard Shaw

    If we don't have fairness and social justice as part of our platform, there is no real reason to be a Democrat. inclusiveheart

    by station wagon on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:21:16 AM PST

  •  Be excellent to each other. (9+ / 0-)

    And party on, dudes.

    Roll with it, baby. Make it your career. Keep the home fires burning, 'til America is in the clear.

    by righteousbabe on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:27:07 AM PST

  •  Meta thinskinnedness and woeismeism (8+ / 0-)

    May I suggest we should perhaps all get over ourselves somewhat.

    Bottom line: Although there are many wonderful people doing their best, Assholishism abounds, everywhere. Why do we presume to think here is or should be any different?

    So, if someone is mean or abusive, shocking though that may be, let's not assign too much importance to it.

  •  And filling in as DailyKos' David Broder...nyceve (9+ / 0-)

    ;)

    In February, it's going to be my three-year kosiversary! That's pretty scary.

    Might I suggest a very simple option to these problems of civility? Turn the computer off.

    Seriously, go read a book. Go out with some friends, go to a museum. Do something. If some pissant poster is bothering you about wanting to smoke some weed legally, go do something else.

    Because when you're hand-wringing about the tone of an internet community, you're blowing things way, way out of proportion.

    And for godsakes, if you can't take criticism even insane, poorly-reasoned criticism than politics is really the wrong business for you.

    •  I wish more people would pay attention to Me (5+ / 0-)

      Seriously, though:

      One of the things I value most about all the Internets places I hang out, and all of the Internets friends I have made, and all of the Internets enemies I screw around with (many of whom later become friends)... is that all I have to do when I get tired of them is walk away from the computer. This is a luxury I don't usually have with my family or the people I work with. I appreciate it immensely.

      But who grants absolution
      For sins that never were committed?

      by gp39m on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:43:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  LOL (4+ / 0-)

      And for godsakes, if you can't take criticism even insane, poorly-reasoned criticism than politics is really the wrong business for you.

      "Someone stop me before I post again!"

      (If I respond to Me, does that mean I'm talking to myself? My head hurts...)

      Pelosi to the Ringwraith Rumsfield: I AM NO MAN!!!

      by Sharoney on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:18:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is true (0+ / 0-)

      But when you feel like a blog is a community, is your home, because of the commenters and their intelligence and respect for each other, then you can't help but feel sad when it begins to pass away.
      This link is the shining example in my mind. I agree with every word. (And in the comments DB called me "a valued member of the DB community". I am crying with pride. Now I have to work on my guest post about David in Chronicles.)

      -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

      by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 06:30:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The tone has discouraged me (6+ / 0-)

    I had some post-election diaries planned. Noticing what I considered a distinct turn in tone, I decided not to spend the time.

    Some of the process of commentary -- rudeness, name-calling, TR in some very strange places -- has taken me aback.

    People have been called names and had their comments given unfortunate (inappropriate, IMHO) labels simply because there was disagreement.

    These are dems here, folks. We are supposed to disagree with each other. That's the "Big Tent" (to borrow someone's handle) aspect of dem culture. Inclusivity. Accepting another person's point of view and stating your own back without unpleasantries.

    Just because the general dialogue in this country has been so vitriolic doesn't mean we need to be.

    "You can count on Americans to do the right thing after they've tried everything else." -- Winston Churchill

    by bleeding heart on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:33:54 AM PST

  •  Editors? Editors? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    suskind, Land of Enchantment

    Somehow . . . .I feel that somehow, if this website is to have credibility in the wider world. . . . .it needs to have some editors. . . . some way to present a concise and digested version. . . . and to keep pushing for clarification and truth among the community.

    For example, if we start going off the rails.....ask the question, take a poll, and find out the truth--are we racists, are we rabid, etc.

  •  This is not exclusive to the politics of today - (8+ / 0-)

    30 years ago it was happening with progressive/left movements all over the country. I can only speak from my own experience, but I remember it clearly. Factionalism and Ego. Each with an agenda and a point of view trying to out-intellectualize, out-shout, out-manuver another faction/agenda/pov. Only then we were sitting around a table for meetings on how best to conduct a rally or whatever and the slings and arrows of insult and accusation was done face to face within the confines of 4 walls. Here it is for all the world to see.

    I'm too new here to know the background for many of the conflicts...but when I see it, I know it. The only difference here - it is for all the world to see.

  •  in need of dkosopedia page (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve

    I've spent the last hour reading thru old diaries trying to figure out what's been going on.
    did it all start with the nominations of FPer's or before?
    did it start with the impeach/ don't impeach debate?
    honestly, it looks like some newly appointed FP folks and friends started critiquing/policing some popular diarists to the dismay of many.
    am I somewhere in the ball park?

  •  We are too accustomed to fighing for 6 years (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    highacidity, 4jkb4ia, Mary Mike

    Democrats have spent six years struggling with the realities of what GWB and his cronies are doing to our nation and our world. We've become so accustomed to fighting, bickering, and frankly being beaten down, we don't know what to do with that energy now.

    We've actually won both houses of Congress - something that few of us would have predicted even a month before it happened. We're still in shock.

    This has resulted in our lashing out at our leaders, and even each other, mainly because we have no idea who to "hate" anymore. We have to break the cycle of fighting and worrying. It is really unhealthy for all of us.

    There always will be conflict and fighting whenever you put a large group of people together, even if they have the same basic interests. At some non-political boards I go to, there are plenty of people who thrive on conflict. I think many of us have become accustomed to having conflict and fear as part of our daily lives, particularly when it comes to politics. We need to break that additiction to anxiety, and it starts by our treating each other with respect, regardless of our points of view.

    I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

    by land of the free on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:50:53 AM PST

  •  and now, there is one more conflict of which we (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    npbeachfun

    will know nothing about.

    The Bill of Rights, and not the Ten Commandments, is what should be on the front of our federal buildings

    by chinkoPelinke on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 10:57:08 AM PST

  •  Can I chime in here? (16+ / 0-)

    Until very recently, I stayed utterly out of personally getting into a flame war with another user.  I broke my one cardinal rule because the nature of the personal disagreement occurred offline and then carried over online as snippets of comments were dropped by me and by others that simply perpetuated a bad situation.  I regret it - it's not like me and I got away from myself for a variety of reasons surrounded by circumstances that will likely never repeat.

    So with my "bad behavior issue" on the table, let me say this: there is only argument because people choose to partake in it.  It's a choice.  I saw the "calling out" of nyceve in the nomination thread and it bugged me to no end.  My basic thinking was this: if you have an issue with the content or claims made by a diarist or commenter, address that issue TO the diarist or commenter.  Calling out a person in a thread is tantamount to talking about them behind their back in a sense.  It's not nice, and invariably feelings will be hurt and a grand distraction will ensue.

    There have been a LOT of flame wars and rude comments and what have you lately, yes.  But I think if you went back and you looked at who is engaging in these activities, you would find that it is concentrated within a repeating set.  In other words, there are many, many active users here at Daily Kos and only the smallest proportion actually seem to be engaged in arguments and occasional nastiness.  So, knowing who those particular people are, you can choose whether or not you even "go there" in their diaries and whether or not you do so as well in responding to a comment.

    I guess what I'm saying here is that you can only get sucked into the vortex if you step closely enough to it to be pulled.  It's a choice, and this site is what you make of it, how you choose to conduct yourself, and what types of discussions you engage yourself in.

    •  True (17+ / 0-)

      But I think if you went back and you looked at who is engaging in these activities, you would find that it is concentrated within a repeating set.

      100% correct.  There seems to be two groups of about 6 - 10 members who are making it miserable for the rest of us.  I don't care how often they get to the rec list, that doesn't give them free range to be shitheads.

      Black by popular demand!

      by fabooj on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:32:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is it impossible to ask who they are? (3+ / 0-)

        I have a difficult time to figure them out and sometimes I would be grateful if people whose judgement I trust would give a hint that something is "wrong" with a diary.

        Mostly I feel frustrated if my own guts tell me that something is not quite right with a diary that gets 1000 plus comments and it looks as if I were the only one who feels that way.

        Makes me very insecure and that shows up in dropping off snark one-liners that are pretty unuseful. I don't like them myself, but I am so tremendously tired just understanding what's behind all of the comments that are out there.

        Power ought to serve as a check to power - Montesquieu, 1748

        by mimi on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:49:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Look at the rec list (6+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          clonecone, mimi, nyceve, otto, 4jkb4ia, cowgirl

          And follow the groupies.  

          I think many people are hesistant to post the one comment that disagrees with the rest of them.  On one hand it's a waste of time to be the naysayer, but then when you have 300 comments and 200 of them are "great diary!" and you're like, "Um, no it actually blows.  Hard." Sometimes you reach the tipping point.

          Yesterday there was (yet another) pointless rant on the rec list.  It was needlessly directed toward another diary on the rec list (could have just been a comment for the content it contained).  I didn't read the comments, but I posted that the "answer" diarist didn't seem to comprehend what the other diarist said.  Then the original diarist needlessly updated his/her diary and I posted that s/he didn't need to do that.  Then sometimes after my original post to the answer diary, the diarist puts in an update saying that he's not doing what the rest of his diary said he was doing.  It just made no sense to me.  

          Black by popular demand!

          by fabooj on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:50:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Well, (0+ / 0-)

      My basic thinking was this: if you have an issue with the content or claims made by a diarist or commenter, address that issue TO the diarist or commenter.

      +

      The criticism. It's reached a tipping point.--snip--

      What's going on with these self-appointed (or officially appointed, God knows, I certainly don't) Kossackian high priests casting judgment on all who don't  precisely live up to some unspecified and ethereal standard?

      = flamewar.

      If you read mcjoan's recent diary, she points out that criticism doesn't necessarily equal an attack.  And that is what started a recent dustup.  There are people who mistake constructive criticism as an attack and feel that if you disagree with a diary, you should just shut up about it and/or go read another one.  By criticizing a diary, people run the risk of being viewed as "Kossackian high priests casting judgment on all who don't precisely live up to some unspecified and ethereal standard".

  •  To be honest (15+ / 0-)

    I think a lot of this has been going on for a while.

    I've been on this blog for a really long time, and it's had a lot of phases of nastiness before, too. All of it -- the cliques, the interpersonal battles, the sometimes over-the-top arrogance -- has always been there, ready to boil over on occasion in any given flame war. Some of it is just how the internet works, sadly -- I think people honestly have a hard time internalizing the idea that the words they're reading on their screens are attached to real people, with real human problems and real human emotions.

    I've only managed to be here so long by frankly not taking it all that seriously. A lot of the core posters are here so often -- so many hours per day -- that I think it becomes a little larger-than-life for some. When I get pissed here, I try to take a deep breath, respond calmly, and walk away for a while. Go take a walk. Play with my dog. Whatever. It's just a discussion space full of random people I'm probably never really going to meet, and we're all bound to butt heads sometimes. And there are a lot of other discussion spaces elsewhere that I really wish people here would go to more -- not because I don't like this one, but because I think some here get their identities a little too caught up with some grand daily kos in-crowd groupiness, if that makes sense.

    All that said, I have noticed that there have been many flame wars over the last little while, and they've gotten particularly nasty. This does two things -- one, it starts getting really personal and sometimes just mean, and then people stop even listening to each other once everybody is defensive. Two, it tends IMO to utterly drown out the more thoughtful, nuanced, and usually interesting posters, who often seem to just give up and walk away rather than be drawn into something for no purpose. I'm not concerned, as kos historically has been, with the raw numbers of posters coming here -- I'm concerned with maintaining the diversity of voices and styles, with the overall breadth. And I think that over the last several years, that has largely diminished.

    The only thing I'm going to get specific about is that I wish people could just learn the lesson that if they're not interested in a diary, there's no need to click on it and bitch. That doesn't mean don't argue, if you have a good point that you think adds something to the discussion -- but I've personally just about hit my limit of reading through comment after comment on diaries that say, more or less, "what a stupid diary/topic/whatever".

    Random thoughts, sorry for the ramble. I have thought about this stuff a lot over the course of the last two years or so. I'm still here, and probably won't be leaving anytime soon -- but I try to take this place for what it is, not what I wish it were.

    •  Well put (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Spit, TiaRachel

      jsut to expand a bit, cliquishness, back-biting, back-stabbing and arrogance aren't just limited to online life, but are part of human behavior generally.  The larger the group, whetehr on line or in reall  life, the more those things come to the fore.  That is true in any activity, but moreso in politics.  Politics being what it is, the social activity engaged in the distribution of power, it will tend to draw a wildly disproportionate number of the people that are control freaks by anture, and that will emphasize all those negatives to the detriment of broad discussion, and to the emphasis of demands for a narrow conformity.

    •  Amen (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Spit, 3goldens

      All that said, I have noticed that there have been many flame wars over the last little while, and they've gotten particularly nasty. This does two things -- one, it starts getting really personal and sometimes just mean, and then people stop even listening to each other once everybody is defensive. Two, it tends IMO to utterly drown out the more thoughtful, nuanced, and usually interesting posters, who often seem to just give up and walk away rather than be drawn into something for no purpose. I'm not concerned, as kos historically has been, with the raw numbers of posters coming here -- I'm concerned with maintaining the diversity of voices and styles, with the overall breadth. And I think that over the last several years, that has largely diminished.

      This is why DKos, as of late, has been so unappealing to me and why I've stayed away from the fray and frankly not given a damn how the chips fall.  I'm hoping that doesn't last long.

  •  Maybe some can step away from dKos (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    atdnext, kath25

    for a short while, and let an alternate perspective gestate, if you will. In college that's the approach for initial drafts of a paper. Let it sit a couple of days before a rewrite/editing.

  •  Felt this way after the 2004 election, too (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Athena, rhubarb, nyceve, 4jkb4ia, Elise, atdnext

    Does anyone remember that time, when every other diary was demanding that Kos post about election fraud on the front page?  It got very very rough and and people were quite rude then.  I think there is an inevitable letdown after a big election that leaves people adrift and yearning for another focus for their energies.  If I remember the 2004 cycle correctly, things settled down after a few months of chaos.

    Is Karl Rove still entitled to "THE MATH"?

    by pontificator on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 11:45:56 AM PST

    •  Yep (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharoney, pontificator, TiaRachel

      Just after the 2004 election was a mess. And I remember the early primary battles, too -- the Dean people and the Clark people were seriously ready for bloodshed, some of them.

      We've gone through some pretty seriously chaotic and mean times before -- I think each new one, though, comes at a time when the blog is bigger, and so the strife multiplies that much more.

      I personally get a little puzzled by the interpersonal shit that goes on here, often between posters I generally like and respect. So often, it stops even being about anything by the third post -- just "well you called me this, you dumbass", "I am so not a dumbass, poo-head", "how dare you insult the great number of poo-head posters, and forty-five days ago you said I was a booger! You must be a troll!".

      Whatever. It has always been thus.

    •  pontificator (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nyceve, atdnext

      I remember.  It wasn't until after the holidays that things turned in a new direction.  I think of Q1 2005 as "the good old days".

      # 12 days 'til the light starts to return

      by jotter on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:33:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Referred to this in comment above (0+ / 0-)

      At least those diaries were about something concrete and not opinions alone. Also georgia10 was there to be the voice of reason.

      -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

      by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 06:36:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It is cyclical (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Elise, cowgirl, atdnext, buhdydharma

    Conflict here comes and goes.  We're reaching the top of the cycle now and I for one do not have a problem with hashing out our differences.

    Insert witty remark here.

    by clonecone on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:02:09 PM PST

  •  nyceve (7+ / 0-)

    You may or may not get some perspective from my experience, but I'm sharing it anyway.

    Before I started coming to dKos on a regular basis, I thought this was the most mean-spirited place around.  The "Who's in and Who's out?" concern and the "high priests" problems existed back then too.  This was in like 2004.  Then, for whatever reason, I began coming here more regularly, and it didn't seem as nasty to me.  It was still there, but the quality writing far outweighed the in-fighting.  

    I don't know if it was the site that improved, or just my perspective because I was seeing less of the superficial stuff and more of the daily ins and outs, appreciating the work put into it, making friends, etc.  

    I began writing for a dKos off-shoot, and became a front pager, and found that the more time and energy I invested into the site, the more frustrated I became, the more fighting I saw or was sucked into, the more bickering and pettiness and personality clashes and power struggles.  

    I don't know if it was the site that declined, or just my perspective because I was now not just a voice in the wilderness, but I was part of some hierarchy, of which I was painfully aware, and all hierarchies ar rife with unfairness and power struggles, because I was devoting so much time to the site that I saw everything, could not just ignore the petty stuff, and because the more of yourself you devote to something, the more you become invested in it, and so the health of the site somehow becomes personal and is reflected in your work.

    So, in my experiences, while blogs like dKos go through generally self-correcting ups and downs, have low points where civility is almost absent and high points where you really feel part of something Important (sometimes simultaneously), I think one's relative investment in a blog like dKos ALSO has high and low points which reflect one's expectations and needs regarding the blog.

    Me, I have stopped writing for the blog I was at, for the time being, and it has been very helpful to gain perspective about what is wrong with the site and what is wrong with my expectations of it.  Uhm, I hope you don't stop writing though!

    Some food for thought.  

    I really sympathize with how you feel, though.  Putting so much work into something and have to put up with such pettiness.  I really value your work here.  Many of us do.  I can assure you you outshine the rubbish.  

    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -Voltaire

    by poemless on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 12:22:28 PM PST

  •  You have pointed out one great weakness (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3goldens, Major Danby

    of this "community!"   Community. An old world word that perhaps has a different meaning here.  

    In my home community, they most likely would feel my fist in their face if someone swears and curses me, as was done to me last week when I dared to suggest the the American Medical Association was "Jewish dominated!"

    I was called a racist and sworn at by some fool that would never dare to do so to my face.  I was given enough donuts to lose my TU status.  Mel Gibson I am not. Never-mind that my family is half Jewish half Gentile and I just judged the membership facts of the AMA without malice, just a comment. I am not the first person to make this observation.  I suppose the  same folks that swore at me would do the same if I suggested that the American entertainment industry is Jewish dominated?  

    I suggest one rule of Kos community should be that if you would feel uncomfortable saying something to someone's face, don't put it on Kos.

    •  Eeck (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueness

      4jkb4ia's tips on the English language:
      "Dominated" suggests conspiracy. In fact in next week's Torah portion Artscroll translates the brothers saying to Joseph "would you then dominate us?" to show they are suspicious of him.
      Give a statistic about how many members of the AMA are Jewish. Then try to say something positive about them.
      I felt creepy when Michael Lind wrote (as best I can remember) that most anti-Vietnam War protesters were Jewish or came from colleges "dominated" by Jews, even though it was true, because he seemed to be trying to oppose the Jewish protesters to the Southern values he is familiar with.

      -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

      by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 06:42:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well said... (8+ / 0-)

    I've been around for a bit as well (UID 9214) and there are waves of distraction obsessions that sweep this community. That is fine as I think it would be an organic occurrence in any community.

    What is sometimes disheartening is the anger/rage at some comments and/or Diaries, especially around possible candidates for 2008, the Mideast, impeachment and a handful of other topics.

    I wish folks would remember to be thoughtful and civil. Last I looked we were all on the same side.

    Still I am confident that the important things will rise to the surface and quality work that gets missed as Diaries quickly scroll by will be discovered by the folks who can use the information to promote real and lasting change.

    I have found this to be the case with many of my Abramoff Diaries that received very little attention.

    Take this example from July of this year. I posted a little read Diary that made the connection between Jack Abramoff and NY-20's John Sweeney (R). There were only 28 comments and It seemed to move quickly through the list, but the right people read it and it stood as a resource for those who worked to defeat Sweeney.

    When the Abramoff connection broke in the Albany Times-Union I was very glad to be part of this community that helped to make that possible. And when Kirsten Gillibrand won I was very, very happy.

    It was just one example of this community at its best. There are thousands more.

    That is what I focus on when the dialogue here gets rude, pointless and downright silly. I know we will snap back when it is important.

    Let's keep our eyes on the prize: taking this country back and creating a just, sustainable and civil society.

    Cheers!

  •  Hellooooooo (0+ / 0-)

    bellybutton.  

    Is it constructive to say that I like you Nyceve?  I do.  

    However, I think I need a metadiet.  

    Disease is a liberal plot.

    by otto on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:12:59 PM PST

  •  An idea? Tie comments per day to mojo... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    andreww, ActivistGuy

    Right now, troll ratings have been limited. Not only to us TU's but in the number even we can use per day. And it seems to have worked, as I've seen far fewer troll ratings since the change.

    Why not ration the number of comments per day you can put up based on mojo? Have a base of 10 or so, and then the more mojo you get, the more it goes up. It may stop the circle jerk hijacking of diaries on subjects there is major disagreement on, like I/P. And persuade people to be more civil to gain mojo.

    You know, after last year I never even opened up that new FP-nominee diary. I figured I had no input and whomever Kos chose would be good, as there are so many good people here...

    "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

    by bewert on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 01:46:02 PM PST

    •  Not worth it with the way mojo is going (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Major Danby

      The posters who give Republicans the best insults will monopolize all the comments. NOT what is desired.

      -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

      by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 06:44:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  All this is going right over my head (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peraspera

    I must be only dimly aware of my surroundings.  FP wars? missed 'em. Uncivil well known posters?  I can't seem to recall any recent examples.  I'm sure it's happening, several diaries have made the same lament.  I feel like a dog watching television; there's a lot of commotion going on in the DKos box, but mostly it's going right by me.

    Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving: it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.--Thomas Paine

    by peterborocanuck on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 02:21:08 PM PST

  •  new territiory for us (5+ / 0-)

    winning the congress means there's actual power involved (or probably more perceived power than actual), not just for our reps but for ourselves.

    Add that to the growth of this site--last year at this time, though the site was largish, we hadn't realized our own influence, our own credibility. We were still small enough to be sort of dorky and interesting(I'm reminded oddly right now of all the homespun debates on "what to wear" at ykos and how we needed to project a serious image). We weren't on the stage yet, so there was less at stake for some people who care about/change their behavior for that sort of thing.

    This all added up means some people who are here not for the debate or to learn or improve things, or to work together, but came in the hopes of finding recognition or personal opportunity (be that in the form of elevation to fp, or a chance to work for the winning team, or some kind of unique role in the community or any other wished for thing) are now in overtime/overdrive. These people have always been here, but there wasn't really much of a hook to drive them on.

    We never had some of these kinds of fights before, because power and opportunity weren't available to us. We're not sure what to do with them and we're running way ahead of the curve. And some will be taken in by our bigness into trying to take on roles of self-importance that drown out respect. Some will judge others for not participating in the way that they would like, even if their participation adds a lot to the site in a different way. It's as unfortunate in large groups as I think it may be inevitable.

    Me I come for the intelligence, to learn, to be able to debate better in the real world, to gain perspectives. I appreciate the range of contributions --some bring technical expertise, some activism, some legal and statistical knowledge, some wonkery, some creativity and warmth. So I'm mostly quiet. And I hope for the best from us, even when we don't always demonstrate it.

  •  If it's of any help at all, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve, BarbinMD

    I wrote this a few days ago, before all this recent hullabaloo.

    The law is slacked and judgment doth never go forth: the wicked compass about the righteous and wrong judgment proceedeth - Habakkuk 1:4

    by vox humana on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 02:52:45 PM PST

  •  asdf (8+ / 0-)

    nyceve - I don't have the notoriety you do around here, but you've said exactly what I've been feeling and thinking about DKos lately

    What's going on with these self-appointed (or officially appointed, God knows, I certainly don't) Kossackian high priests casting judgment on all who don't  precisely live up to some unspecified and ethereal standard?  It's a great feeling not to be in the inner circle--not to know what the hell is happening. But would someone tell an idiot like me, what gives?

    I've been around here for awhile. They way things are going, pretty soon, my UID 21195 will seem valuable. But even an old-timer like me can no longer even begin to figure out what's "correct" and what's verboten.  Who's in and who's out? I was never big on cliques in elementary school certainly not on Daily Kos.

    My user # is 3742, so I've been around since almost the beginning.  Most of the time, it's been rewarding, enriching, educational, and unbelievably emotional.  I've done some diaries, but frankly the cliquish nature of things around here lately has me thinking the work and love put into them is NOT WORTH it.  At times, like lately, it's really hard to feel as though anybody other than a select few Kossacks belongs here.  You see the same names day after day on the rec list, while other terrific and labor intensive diaries written by dedicated but less recognized Kossacks fall off the diary list faster than you can count to ten.  And I've been wondering as a result of all the flames wars, the tone, and the lectures just who is this place for?      

    I haven't been around here much lately because of the elitist and 'better than you' attitudes that seem to have taken over Daily Kos.  It sure would be nice to see other, more lowly Kossack peons around here start being recognized not just for their dairies, but for their comments and responses to the diaries and comments of more recognized Kossacks on this site, who tend to address their thoughts and comments to other more recognized Kossacks and ignore the contributions of thousands of others who frequent this site.

    Like you, I stayed out of the fray for FPers.  For me, it was why bother? It's not likely that my contributions or thoughts would have held any credence or even be noted.

    So I thank you for this diary.  I  hope it gets better around here.  I've always hated elitist attitudes and rankings.  Right now, this place isn't very appealing.

  •  Israel and Chavez (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    redrobin

    Two controversial issues I often seem to be on the wrong side of here (I'm Pro-Israel, Anti-Chavez).
    Neither of these is liberal dogma. There's plenty of room for debate.

    The glass is 2/3rds empty, and the last third is usually backwash.

    by iowabosox on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 03:45:41 PM PST

  •  I appreciate the diary (4+ / 0-)

    but the thing is this was almost certain to happen.

    Just as the Republican coalition holds together things that are inherently contradictory (from the fundies who want to make Jesus the center of everything to the money-uber-alles libertarian types) so does the Democratic party have a similar problem. And I think that unlike the GOP, our (Democratic) representatives are even more of a contradictory coalition than their (Democratic) voters. By that I mean the voters are much more lopsided on certain issues like trade and the Iraq war than the people who hold up our banners in Washington DC.

    So now that the Democrats have won a major victory, key questions about what to do with power were bound to come up.

    On the one side we have our forces of "perpetually keep your power dry" and on the other are the people who recognize that the corrosive effects of the Bu'ushist regime have to be rapidly overturned and beaten back before they become enshrined by precedent to be "just the way things are" (if that's not already too late for that)

    So you can tell I'm on the side of: "this is a national emergency." We've just been through six years where we launched an illegal war of aggression, engaged in torture and kidnapping and extrajudicial executions, and our branches of government handed the Presidency the power to make all kinds of imperial decisions about who is an enemy and how that person can be made to vanish or die. If the Democrats do nothing to turn over the applecart now, then these things will be with us for the rest of our lives. The Bush years have seen a tremendous falling of America, and we had already fallen quite far thanks to the worst aspects of the cold war.

    So of course we're going to fight about this. If you think there is an emergency you don't sit around quietly keeping your powder dry, and you get angry when people don't see the onrushing train of disasters.

    Or as Ted Rall put it:

  •  Well said. (0+ / 0-)

    INVESTIGATE! SPINE UP!

    by ormondotvos on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 04:16:39 PM PST

  •  This is so awful (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nyceve
    BarbinMD is sufficient for pointedly angry posts. I cannot believe that people cannot appreciate what Kagro has done, what Devilstower has done. Every FP post they have written has been marvelous.
    I did not read the official FP nomination thread through to the end even, since the same names kept coming up and I didn't have anyone better.
    Since Jerome's thread had 1400 comments I assumed people were simply tearing each other apart there. I did not have time to read 1400 comments. My opinion on impeachment is that Kagro makes a great deal of sense, but together with establishing so that everyone can see it that this president has blatantly disregarded the rule of law and espouses an excessive legal theory of his own powers, the Democrats must get the country running competently again. The NYT story today about the Coast Guard boats was a complete horror and flows directly from the Republicans' opinions that everything should be privatized.  

    -4.00, -5.33 "I expected to hear from the usual well-read laymen, and overeducated computer scientists."--DovBear

    by 4jkb4ia on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 04:23:41 PM PST

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